Obviously because he’s a weak candidate (and has been from the very beginning) in what might well be the highest stakes presidential race in US history.
The debate didn’t suddenly create some notion of his weakness as a candidate - long before the debate, his prospects were already shaky at best, and the Dem establishment had already had to resort to basically trying to guilt trip people into voting for him.
All the debate did as far as any of that goes is drive home the point that people have been trying to make from the beginning - that he is and always has been a weak and uninspiring candidate at best.
And I’d say that rather obviously, if anyone’s repeating the mistakes of 2016, it’s the Dem establishment.
And on a bit of a side note - in response to the author’s smugly self-congratulatory view that the voters are mindless automatons who just blindly do as the media tells them, I would just like to offer up a hearty, “fuck you.”
All the debate did as far as any of that goes is drive home the point that people have been trying to make from the beginning - that he is and always has been a weak and uninspiring candidate at best
And Biden knew it too, it’s why the man who wouldn’t shut up for decades suddenly disappeared from the public eye.
He did less than a tenth of the press conferences as the last two presidents in their first term.
If they wouldn’t have been hiding him, Dem voters would have seen how bad he’s gotten.
Mans was sleepy! 4 years of jet lag.
I should also add that his ABC interview on Friday only intensified my concerns. To me, all it really communicated is that he actually IS so wrapped up in his own ego and hubris that he doesn’t actually get that this is an existential election, and that the consequences for failure are well and truly catastrophic. Like, there’s a good chance we won’t have functional democratic processes anymore if he looses. But he thinks that’s fine because “he will have given it his all”, ignoring the fact that “his all” is shuffling around, trying to compromise with fascists, and bringing a deck of cards to the gunfight that American politics have devolved into these days.
Really, it’s an evolution of the concerns I had in the 2020 elections, which have kind of proven out to be completely true: that despite some clear domestic policy successes, he’s more or less out of touch with the fact that he’s playing with an absurdly outdated rule book, and does not seem to understand that the rules have fundamentally changed. He doesn’t get that a lot of his old bipartisan negotiating tactics are straight up self-defeating these days.
I am genuinely and deeply worried at this point that his refusal to see past his own personal situation in all of this is going to lead to the conclusion of the American experiment in its current incarnation, and replace it with something far, far darker.
Edit: if you’re downvoting this, I am actually genuinely curious as to which parts of this you disagree with, or think are wrongheaded.
I’m glad you mentioned his interview increased your concern. I thought it was just me. I’ll vote for whoever is the Democrat on the ballot - but I’m not the person the campaign should be worried about. They have to put someone on the ballot who can win (which, as damning as it is to America broadly, is probably a good-looking, smooth-talking white guy who will look better on stage than Trump).
Really, it’s an evolution of the concerns I had in the 2020 elections, which have kind of proven out to be completely true: that despite some clear domestic policy successes, he’s more or less out of touch with the fact that he’s playing with an absurdly outdated rule book, and does not seem to understand that the rules have fundamentally changed.
He and the DNC and the Democrat establishment as a whole.
The voters made it clear in 2020 that they didn’t really want him all that much, and arguably the only reason he got the nomination is because the Democrat establishment transparently engineered it by getting all the candidates other than Sanders to all drop out and endorse Biden essentially simultaneously. That gave the establishment the opportunity to push through Biden’s nomination in spite of his glaring weakness as a candidate. They could’ve had a populist to rival Trump, and one that’s notably sane rather than a delusional narcissist and compulsive liar with the emotional maturity of a spoiled five-year-old, but instead they doggedly stuck to the same playbook that in the past brought us such drab losers as Mondale, Dukakis and Kerry, and brought us another drab loser who only barely managed to not lose.
And now here we are, four years down the line, with a drab loser incumbent up against the greatest threat American democracy has ever faced.
The rules clearly changed in 2016. The RNC and the Republican establishment changed to accomodate them (or at least to provide a colorable appearance of doing so). The DNC and the Democrat establishment did not. And now we’re reaping what they sowed.
I get so frustrated, and I’m sure others too, that I’ve been saying this for the entirety of the Biden presidency. Now that it’s 10 minutes to midnight everyone decides to talk about it. My voice has been ignored, I’ve been shutdown and basically forced out of any discussion when I brought this shit up.
The problem isn’t that the media changed. The problem isn’t that the DNC changed. The problem isn’t progressives changed. The problem is the voting public decided just now to actually show up. Democracy is dying not because the Republicans are political juggernauts it’s because Americans can’t get it up unless it’s fucking a giant production.
So you mother fuckers better do everything you fucking can to keep Trump out because I cant fucking even with you guys anymore.
I would say that the fact that the DNC hasn’t changed is pretty obviously the main problem.
With the exceptions of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, they’ve been offering up nothing but weak, uninspiring establishment hack candidates for decades now. And 2016 was the year when the base finally said that enough was enough, and they wanted an inspiring candidate who actually shared their values and not just another establishment hack who happened to have a (D) after their name.
And instead of changing to accomodate the clearly expressed preference of the electorate, the DNC dug in their heels and forced the establishment hack on us anyway.
Then after that so deservedly blew up in their faces, they went ahead and did it again in 2020. And they only managed to get away with it that time because Trump had just spent the last four years proving that he’s not just a ridiculous buffoon in clown makeup, but a grotesquely power-hungry buffoon in clown makeup who’s ready and willing to destroy the US because daddy never loved him.
And I’d say that the last four years, and the fact that Trump is back and a bigger threat than ever, pretty clearly illustrates that in spite of the fact that he managed to win, the establishment hack still wasn’t the right choice.
But as far as I can see, the DNC and the Democrat establishment still hasn’t changed. They’re still determined to go with an uninspiring establishment hack and count on some combination of resignation, desperation and guilt to compel enough people to vote for him to hopefully eke out a win.
The entire reason that Trump got support in the first place is that he gave a previously disillusioned and frustrated base what they wanted. The GOP was all set to nominate their own establishment hack - Jeb Bush - but when they saw the way the wind was blowing, they (eventually) got out of the way and let the people pick Trump instead. And it worked, entirely predictably.
There’s a much larger base on the left, including the vast majority of young voters, who are currently disillusioned and frustrated, and the DNC and the Democrat establishment, specifically because they haven’t and apparently won’t change, are missing out on the opportunity they would provide. And this is NOT a time to be missing out on opportunities. This is NOT a time for business as usual. It’s a time to inspire people.
You said it yourself, the issue was appernt in 2016 but all 2020 to 2024 no one did a god damn thing about it. I’m telling you, if you even tried to reason anyone away from biden, conversations were shut down. We cant just show up in the latter half of an election year and make demands. Change has to happen first. We took the W in 2020 when we should have said, “hey that was too fucking close let’s fix this shit now.”
If we survive 2024, it will only be by the skin of our teeth and the DNC will attempt the same shit. Uphold the status quo and ignore an ever more frustrated electorate. We need to secure democracy and then reform the party, and they will go out kicking and screaming.
The only reasonable explanation for all of this is the DNC and GOP are operating under the assumption of mutually assured destruction. Bidens going down with the ship.
golf clap… Well said.
Biden only appears weak to those not paying attention. He has a strong record of achievements, some you may have missed., not to mention bringing chip manufacturing back to the U.S.. He has skillfully navigated the impending recession to a soft landing and his policies are preferred by both Democrats and Republicans by a wide margin. Many didn’t see him as a great president but his results may prove them wrong. He will go down in history as under appreciated president. Biden is a successful president. Will that matter?
Biden’s weak because he’s got a low approval rating, a high disapproval rating, he’s losing badly in every poll, and 80% of voters think he’s too old to be President. Being a strong candidate isn’t about how qualified or accomplished you are, it’s about how strong your electoral support is. To those who’ve been paying attention, Biden’s weakness has been apparent for years, and we’ve been raising alarms since he said he would seek reelection.
And none of that carefully manicured astroturf makes the slightest bit of difference.
The Democrat rank and file have been clearly telling the DNC and the rest of the establishment for eight years now that we want a real leftist - somebody who actually represents our values who we can and will rally behind rather than just another establishment hack who’s sort of maybe somewhere to the leftish side of the extremely narrow establishment hack spectrum.
And for the same eight years, the DNC and the rest of the establishment has been alternately ignoring us and telling us that we’re too stupid to understand what’s best for us (just as you’re doing now).
They fucking cost us the election already in 2016, and damned near did again in 2020. And now they’re set to try to do it in 2024.
This election is unlike any other in US history. With overt fascists riding Trump’s coattails, already with a roadmap to destroying democracy and instituting their dictatorship, this isn’t just a choice between potential presidents, but a choice between destroying or saving the US.
So it really doesn’t matter in the slightest what sort of policy achievements a Democrat candidate might or might not have. The ONLY thing that matters is whether or not the candidate will inspire enough voters to win.
That’s it - this time around, winning literally is everything. NOTHING else matters.
And all the DNC and the Democrat establishment has to do to effectively guarantee a win is get the fuck out of the way and let the people choose the candidate they want - the candidate that they’re going to rally behind. That’s what the voters have wanted for eight years now, and it’s long past time for the power brokers and their mouthpieces to back the fuck off and let them.
Now that said, I don’t think the situation is as dire as all that. Trump and his fascist cohorts are such an obvious threat that I think that come November, if the DNC and the rest of the Democrat establishment have gone ahead and decided to gamble the fate of the country on clinging to a weak establishment candidate in spite of eight years of clearly communicated disillusionment from the base, just being “not-Trump” will be enough to likely win anyway, as it was in 2020.
But it’s not a sure thing. A candidate that the people chose and the people rallied behind would be a sure thing, while an establishment hack is just someone who might manage to eke out a win because enough people will hold their noses and vote for them anyway, solely on the “strength” of them being not-Trump.
Breaking out his checklist doesn’t mean anything, even average/working class people are struggling. If he was doing well as folks make him out to be, people would be singing his praises and be ready to stand beside him. He has gained a ton of apathy over 4 years.
Don’t forget he beat Medicare and has golf handicap of 6.
The
mediaDNC is once again repeating the mistakes of 2016Pokemon go to the polls? No. This time we need you to walk tuah polling place and vote on that thang.
Fucking hell I love the “walk tuah poll.” Damn, I wish I was running my own campaign to use that on right now. I wouldn’t hesitate to use it.
How high are you right now?
Crazy how systems are in place to commodify the meme within a couple weeks. Already merchandise? Damn this sucks now.
Two different groups can be fucking things up in depressingly familiar fashion at once
The DNC and corporate media walk hand in hand… They’re both bought and paid for by the same oligarchy
You better tell the fuckin corporate media that then, because they’re definitely not holding up their end of the bargain
I would be surprised if more than 5% of even people who pay attention to the media know about the climate bill or about Biden’s impact on the economy. Who do you think is responsible for that? The nation’s dogcatchers?
I don’t mean that the media works FOR the DNC… They both work for the oligarchy… If the oligarchy wanted people to know about the climate bill, the media would shove it down our throats 24/7
Personally I think the oligarchy is currently going for as much chaos as possible, driving towards a major culling of the herd through war and the collapse of western society… But hopefully that’s just me
Yep, they think they’ll be safe and just be able to ride it out on their super yachts while we all die over pointless culture war bullshit. They’re probably right.
20161968
Just the pundit class? 🤨
Welcome to the pundit class
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Because they probably watched the same disaster of a debate that I did.
It is very clear that the people who oppose Trump fall into one of two camps right now:
Those who watched the debate and his ABC interview, and those who did not.
If you watched, you’re alarmed.
If not, you are feeling like this alarm is better worth ignored. And you should go watch the debate and interview.
Smerconish’s piece on it was exactly it. https://youtu.be/CgZRz2vdnp8
Watched every minute and I’m alarmed. Still not calling for Biden to drop out.
This makes Trump happy
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“We definitely want the dementia patient,” a source close to Trump told NOTUS. “They made their bed; they get to sleep in it.”
https://www.notus.org/2024-election/biden-heritage-republicans
Because it drives ratings and all the dumbasses who pick it up and run with it are the same ones who followed “this is how Bernie can still win.” I’ve already seen multiple people say “we could have AOC!” as if that is at all realistic. And although she is the most “out there” fan fic pick there are still plenty of others who would immediately be torn apart.
Choosing a different horse at this point leads to a Mondale style wipeout.
Funny how everyone latches onto “generic democrat polls better” polls that would IMMEDIATELY shift as soon Biden drops and they come in.
It would:
- signal Democrats have no idea what they’re doing
- Put out the feeling they’re terrified
- Open up a new candidate to attacks “they’re too left, they’re too soft on crime, they’re …”
- Give up the incumbency advantage and it IS an advantage.
Why anyone is still on this “drop out Biden” crap is beyond me. His interview was fine (notice how no one is bringing that up in comparison to one bad debate). Trump has MULTIPLE times looked confused and out of it on this campaign trail let alone all the years before (notice how no one brings that up.) Project 2025 should scare the living daylights out of anyone- Republican, Democrat, or independent and especially in light of the relatively progressive and largely relaxed time of Biden’s admin…
To me this is nothing but a Republican plan come to fruition by latching on whatever they could and a bunch of dummies running with it. And by dummies I mean people who don’t like Biden and see this as their perfect chance to drop him, even if their preferred younger candidate gets absolutely stomped in the election. They’d rather have “their way” even if it means giving up the presidency.
Hold the line- Biden will be fine.
For me it was seeing a news article montage showing literally the exact same headlines from 2016 about Hillary Clinton. It’s just the same play from a tired playbook.
And you know what? It’s working. Because the media is a big bag of chucklefucks who will all be looking around like “we’re all looking for the guy that did this” when Project 2025 comes for them.
How did Hillary do in the outcome of 2016 election btw?
To me this is nothing but a Republican plan come to fruition by latching on whatever they could and a bunch of dummies running with it.
That’s a pretty good summary of most of the anti-Biden rhetoric this go around. It seems like the GOFascists know that trump is going to struggle and they’re latching on to anything to keep bad Biden news on everyone’s mind and not Trump’s dementia riddled asinine word vomit.
Sad to see how many “leftists” are doing their best to get republicans elected. Be it bad faith discussions or just accelerationist ideology, it sounds the same on the outside.
It’s been 4 years of “leftists” polling for Trump
As a Republican, I second this opinion: /s
Despite Trump’s myriad legal issues and questions surrounding his own temperament and fitness for office, Biden’s struggles have been a boon for the ex-president’s campaign. And his allies want to keep Biden on the ballot in a number of states — as they aim to retain an advantage in a race that at the moment leans in their favor.
And Republicans are thrilled that the heat — for now — is off Trump.
But Trump’s conservative allies have long eyed ballot rules under a scenario in which Biden could potentially leave the race, and they are preemptively floating legal action to keep the president on statewide ballots should he step aside as the Democratic nominee, according to The Washington Post.
So, by all means, keep him
It’s silly to talk about a “pundit class”. It’s not like they’re a group with any coherent ideas, much less any sort of persistent group loyalty. They’re just people with opinions and a platform.
This article tries to make it sound like he’s a really popular candidate and there’s some shady group of kingmakers trying to block him.
The main reason that people are pushing for him to step aside is that they don’t believe he can beat Trump. It’s not that people were grumpy about a raspy voice. There was already a lot of suspicion that he’s going senile. He got the benefit of the doubt and the debate was his chance to prove the doubters wrong. Instead he confirmed their deepest fears. Since then, he’s provided a steady stream of examples of his diminishing mental capacity.
A formal cognitive assessment might lay those fears to rest but, at this point, it’s unlikely. For many people, the conclusion is clear; the evidence is in and he forgets what he’s talking about mid-sentence. Many people look at the polling numbers around that just want someone who has a chance of beating Trump.
Don’t disagree, but also curious why the same pundits aren’t ripping apart Trump’s senility? 30 seconds of watching a Daily Show weekly roundup will provide COUNTLESS examples of Trump rambling endlessly and forgetting what he was even talking about. Just because it wasn’t as stark at the debate doesn’t’ mean it isn’t happening. I’d also imagine that Trump was probably coked out of his mind at the debate after he spent weeks leading up to it claiming Biden would be on drugs. He has a well-documented history of projecting whatever he’s doing wrong on his opposition.
Because Trump’s senility doesn’t matter; Republicans are going to vote for him regardless
It’s because we’re talking about two entirely different groups of people.
More and more Democrats are calling for Biden to withdraw because they don’t believe he can beat Trump.
Republicans are happy to stick with Trump because they’re fairly sure he can trounce Biden.
Don’t disagree, but also curious why the same pundits aren’t ripping apart Trump’s senility
Republicans are held to a lower standard.
Those articles are out there.
The key differences are Trump is the popular candidate. He is who the GOP electorate wants and who the GOP runs on.
Biden is not a popular candidate and not who the Democratic party electorate necessarily wants: instead his whole candidacy and presidency has solely been not being Trump. This condition is fully transferrable to any candidate with support of the party.
So the ramifications and implications are wildly different.
Biden is not a popular candidate and not who the Democratic party electorate necessarily wants: instead his whole candidacy and presidency has solely been not being Trump. This condition is fully transferrable to any candidate with support of the party.
Biden may not be a popular candidate on Lemmy, but he absolutely was prior to that debate showing with the general public. It turns out moderates and independents make up a large portion of the voting block and they aren’t all drooling at the prospects of Bernie Sanders. They WANT a boring president.
They want a competent president. Biden has been showing these signs for quite some time to a lot of resistance towards anyone willing to acknowledge it. But now? Shit I’ve seen hard leftists express willingness to support Kamala Harris so I think people are mostly on board for not-Biden in general.
he absolutely was prior to that debate showing with the general public
Only 25% of Democrats wanted him to run, he is not a popular candidate
My guess is - people have heard so many articles about Trump fucking up that they don’t get clicks any more. Tearing into Biden is much more lucrative, plus people then argue about it in comments (just look around here) further driving engagement.
the fact we should even need a cognitive test is Ludacris. age limits for presidential and high court positions. past retirement age? gtfo
It’s clearly because the evil media is out to get Perfect Young Biden. There can be no other possible explanation.
What, you don’t like his new spray tan? /s
Look who pays their bills.
Wow, this is written by one truly oblivious journalist
Because Biden is a distasteful choice for president. That being said, there are no other strong options right now so we’re stuck with it.
there are no other strong options right now
How so? The Rest is Politics identified a few candidates who are more than capable, Gavin Newsom among them.
Sadly, I suspect the average voter isn’t really aware of who Newsom is. People are really disconnected from anything but the biggest headlines.
Every voting person would know within a week if Biden stepped down and gave 1/4th the support to the new candidate what he gives to Israel’s far right wing government.
My naive theory is that Biden plans to drop out as late as possible so that he can take a media beating from the Republicunts and protect the real DNC nominee.
Yeah, I can’t see that helping. You want someone to have as much coverage as possible.
When the DNC “upset” happens, there will be coverage. All the people with half a brain will be relieved and vote blue. Fox will fire up propaganda, but it can’t compare to years of “Biden bad”
Holy fuck I hope so. I’m voting for whoever is most likely to beat Trump but I really don’t want to vote for this ticket.
Exactly! Blue no matter who (but barely on Biden)
That would be funny as shit, but like basically everything Dark Brandon adjacent I fear it is more of a cope than reality.
Can he do that after arresting supreme court judges? After all, he’s got presidential immunity.
Yeah, he should drop out the day of the election and put forth Kamala, so no one knows who they’re voting for. /s
Because they are spineless cowards and various GOP operatives who have been doing this shit since Clinton and have become absolutely fuckin experts at it, came up to them in the locker room
“Hey so I pretty much everyone thinks Biden is a loser now,” they said.
“Really?” Said the media.
“Oh my God, do you even have to ask that?” asked the GOP derisively. “Did you see him at the debate?”
“I guess he did look pretty old…” said the media, thinking silently about when Trump said a wave of immigrants was coming in and killing our citizens at a level we’ve never seen.
“Media, he looked like a fucking ZOMBIE. He looked like an old, old man who didn’t know what year it was. I hope they find someone new after this. They’re pretty much going to have to. There’s no way they’re going to stick with that guy. He looks like someone’s great grandfather. He’s finished,” said the GOP forcefully. And then, after a carefully timed pause, they turned. “Wait, you don’t think he did GOOD, do you?”
And so on
And then the GOP operative got paid almost two hundred thousand dollars a year, and the media went out and wrote the story it was goddamned well supposed to write.
Dude. The Democrats leaked like a sieve to the media after that debate. It wasn’t the GOP holding the knife.
Some Democrats “leaked” because they are SPINELESS but Joe Biden already has the keys to a 2024 win.
I’m sorry but “charisma” is not a data point you can put into a model. The truth is everything in the modern era has been predictable for a lot of people. And polling may be snapshots, but by putting those snapshots together you can see trends really easily. The second the guy cherry picked the one poll that had Biden up the day after the debate I knew he wasn’t the kind of guy who actually runs math models. Nobody who “makes predictions” is doing so off of a single poll. And certainly not one that was either a flash poll or conducted before the debate. To get a look at how long getting that kind of data takes, we’re just now getting in depth data from battleground states that was gathered after the debate.
He’s also guilty of something you’re not supposed to do if you’re in that game. He’s putting himself in play. Saying there’s some X factor only he knows about. In reality, even if there was such a factor, it wouldn’t matter. This is a crisis of confidence that Biden brought down on himself. And it won’t be easily gotten past. The question now isn’t, does Biden win in a traditional race because that’s gone. The question now is how much damage gets done here. Can he win with that damage? and can someone else win with the damage of a replacement? And you only need to read the news to see some of the party leadership and Donors have decided the answers are No and Yes.
But also that answer during the interview didn’t help at all. He said he’d just be proud to do his best? This isn’t a fucking little league game. If he gets replaced or goes forward to lose, that’s the moment historians are going to point to.
Because they are spineless cowards and various GOP operatives
You can’t possibly think that Democrat mainstays like The New York Times, The New Yorker, and The Atlantic are all being manipulated by GOP operatives.
“Democrat” as an adjective is notable, as is viewing the New York Times as a “Democrat mainstay”
Before the 2016 election, yeah mostly. Definitely in comparison to most US media. But as mostly a Democrat looking at the NYT’s coverage in the modern era, I am mostly horrified by it
Corporate news, like the other wealthy folks, love their big tax breaks.
So, you think the New York Times secretly wants the Republicans to win, and none of the dozen or so experienced journalists who comprise their editorial board has said anything about it.
Cool. I look forward to watching liberals tear down their own side because they can’t face reality.
Wait, you think corpo media are democratic mainstays?
How fucking naive are you?
They’re incentivized to push the agenda since Trump wants to put in more protection för big money
It’s not that. Anti-Trump media makes a buttload of money wringing their hands and saying how bad he is. He drives ratings.
People stopped listening to him after he screwed up COVID. Plus everyone was tired of his antics after 4 years.
Fuck the media. This is your future here. Don’t vote for Biden. Vote for better Supreme Court Justices, better laws, better executive orders, and less corruption.
Don’t vote for Biden. Vote for better Supreme Court Justices, better laws, better executive orders, and less corruption.
And get… Biden.
Correlate whom owns the media and whom stands to profit from Trump presidency
It’s not that.
Anti-TrumpAnti-Biden media makes a buttload of money wringing their hands and saying how badhe ishis chances are.HeIt drives ratings.FTFY. If you can’t see how the media pivoted from anti-Trump to Anti-Biden without missing a beat, I don’t know what to say other than I don’t think you’re paying attention.
People stopped listening to him after he screwed up COVID. Plus everyone was tired of his antics after 4 years.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re paying attention. The media and his donor class never stopped listening to him, outside of the couple weeks after J6 when consequences might have been a thing, and they’ve been giving him attention basically non stop for the better part of a decade now.
It was nice for a while when it seemed like maybe he’d be losing sway in the republican party, but that time was mercilessly short and long gone.
Interesting title. I had the impression that so many pundits sought to prop him up.
It’s not quite the same as 2016 because then, we had no incumbent President running. It was a blank slate on both sides.
Yes, Biden had a bad debate – but so did Trump.
“Bad” is not nearly as descriptive of a word as is necessary here. Biden had very low expectations and somehow fell short of them. Even worse, he fell short in the exact, perfect way to feed into Republican talking points about him having dementia, in by far the worst way he or any other president has ever done, at the most important moment, with literally years to prepare for that moment.
I think it’s not an exaggeration to say that 2024 Joe Biden is the single worst major party candidate at winning an election in the history of the US. Name someone worse - I know some people have been totally crushed in elections, but you gotta judge those results relative to the competition. Look at all that’s happened with Trump during and since the 2016 election. In 2016, there was no Stormy Daniels, no sexual assault verdict, no fraud verdict, no tragicomic failed attempt to steal the election from the very voters who he’s asking to vote for him again. Forget 1980 Jimmy Carter, I think current, 99-year-old hospice patient Jimmy Carter would have no problem beating Trump. The fact that Biden is behind proves he’s the worst politician in history, and by far.
