American car companies honestly deserve to get obliterated here, sorry it is capitalism shrugs.
If you make shitty cars that are totally out of sync with what the world needs and that makes you massively lose against a country that is willing to actually make practical EVs… then your company deserves to go out of business.
The last time this happened it was Japanese cars, and the US auto industry failed and got bailed out. I expect that to happen again with Chinese EVs.
The ability to make cars involves a lot of skills that can have military applications. There’s a reason car factories were converted to build basically everything in WWII, and the US won’t give up that ability for national security reasons. So our auto industry can’t fail, and will be propped up by the government.
nationalize them and force EV product lines and then spin off as a worker co-op
I have to wonder if people are serious with these absurd suggestions or what on Earth you are trying to achieve by writing this. This is about as realistic at demanding that America should build a second moon entirely out of cheese.
Yeah, it’s so much better to just write checks to failing companies. Obama bailed out GM without any preconditions.
What if instead the government took the equivalent amount of ownership and put them on the path to building EVs? GM could’ve been Tesla without the Musk issue. And the public shares could’ve either been kept by the government, sold on the market later on or turned over to the workers so they could have someone on the board.
None of this is an outlandish phantasy, other countries did similar.
What if instead the government took the equivalent amount of ownership and put them on the path to building EVs? GM could’ve been Tesla without the Musk issue.
In 2009, $/kwh prices were astronomical. There is a reason the Model 3 didn’t exist until 2017. Trying to make that car back in 2009 would have been a catastrophically awful idea.
You guys have to stop with these suicidal ideas.
The Tesla roadster was released in 2008, and electricity has always been cheaper than the equivalent in petrol.
This user meant the price per kWh of battery capacity. The Tesla Roadster was little more than an expensive proof of concept that was vastly inferior compared to the Lotus Elise it was based on.
The US government forcing GM to make a $100,000 luxury EV in 2008/9 would have been so laughably bad I can’t put it into words. And yes, the $/kwh of batteries was terrible then, why do you think EVs were so damn expensive in 2009?
Neoliberal brain can’t allow anything good to actually happen
Free market is when the government writes blank checks to fix market failures.
other countries did similar
Got any examples?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalisation_of_Northern_Rock https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfius
Can’t find any definitive lists of nationalisations, but there were more cases where the government would just buy distressed assets and would either keep them or reprivatise years down the line for profit.
Yeah, that suggestion is hysterically nonviable for a plethora of reasons. Even joking about that would eviscerate the average politician. Not even just the average American politician, the average European politician would get wrecked for such a nonviable idea.
What kind of cheese? Are private citizens allowed to go there and fill our pockets? Or is it government cheese and we wouldn’t want to
Absolutely they’ll get bailed out. They know they’re “too big to fail” and will make stupid short term decisions based on the fact that they won’t have to deal with their own nonsense further down the road.
All of these comments about CCP subsidies and flooding the market with cheap goods are hilarious, considering fossil fuels have received several trillion (with a capital T) in subsidies every year for generations, and the fact that most of the products you buy are already manufactured in China.
If we didn’t want this to happen our governments should have invested in clean tech R&D and industries decades ago, and prevented “globalization” from offshoring everything to China. This is our governments and corporations fault… They’ve already had their cake, now they want to eat it too.
All of these comments about CCP subsidies and flooding the market with cheap goods are hilarious, considering fossil fuels have received several trillion (with a capital T) in subsidies every year for generations, and the fact that most of the products you buy are already manufactured in China.
Great point especially because the biggest way the US has subsidized fossil fuels isn’t even the trillions of dollars, it is the subsidization of fossil fuels through the foreclosure of young people’s future and every single generation after that running for thousands of years out into the indefinite future.
I just worry that, as always, we the customers will bear brunt of this. Cheap EVs flooding the market is what American car companies deserve but if it’s all garbage wish . Com versions of Teslas then American consumers don’t deserve to have yet another disposable commodity forced on them. If the course of action follows we’ll have shit overpriced EVs and almost no real selection.
Cheap EVs flooding the market is what American car companies deserve but if it’s all garbage wish . Com versions of Teslas then American consumers don’t deserve to have yet another disposable commodity forced on them.
China doesn’t make crap, that is very very outdated perspective on Chinese goods. Chinese corporations isn’t necessarily in the business of ensuring quality control all the way up the production chain, but more luxurious brands still make all their shit in China too, they just (sometimes) add an additional layer of quality control on top of the Chinese method of industrial production.
I am sure there are absolutely shit Chinese EVs, but I am absolutely sure that there are also extremely nice affordable economy Chinese EVs, because China is a massive country and has countless different industrial production chains. It is simply a matter of doing the work to figure out which ones are producing quality EVs and which ones aren’t, same as buying any other product directly from China instead of having a western brand do the work of finding the quality products being produced in China for you and relabeling it with their brand.
There are absolutely still garbage products coming out of China, that hasn’t changed.
What has changed is that not all of their products are garbage. Companies there have absolutely stepped it up in recent years.
That being said: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3196259/tests-show-12-out-13-childrens-toothpastes
That’s all but one of the toothpastes tested *containing lead. Make of that what you will, but I personally wouldn’t put it past Chinese companies taking shortcuts with what they export.
You phrased it backwards, 12 of 13 contained lead but you said 1 of 13.
Probably a typo!
Fuck, yeah I accidentallied that one. I even had to re-read it because I missed it when you corrected me too haha
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Tell me you don’t understand the geopolitical context without telling me you don’t understand the geopolitical context
The new tariffs are also expected to apply to other clean energy goods, like solar panels and critical minerals
This is the worse news. Cheap consumer level solar panels have been a game changer
To an extent absolutely. The problem on both fronts however is that China’s government heavily subsidizing both. Makes it impossible good or bad for others to compete. Being overprotective of anti-competitive capitalists is definitely the wrong move however.
Massive subsidies to destroy competition is also anti competitive. I have no love of the US auto industry and their many failings but maybe a tarrif tied to the amount the good was subsidized might help prevent that practise.
I haven’t really thought it through though so I’m sure there are many nuances I haven’t considered.
Yes that was the greater point I was getting at. China isn’t some big fuzzy good guy. I’m no fan of the major American Auto manufacturers. But there is good reason that they’re doing this. Even if I think they would do better trying to become more competitive. There’s only so much they can do without similar subsidy from local governments.
The first one that comes to mind is China absolutely does not tell anyone else the level of subsidization.
Which is why the EU is also starting to clamp down on this (finally).
panels are important. if the US doesn’t like it we should open solar panel factories here
This is an interesting situation where I disagree personally but agree geopolitically. It’s strong for the domestic economic to keep US automakers competitive.
But damn, cheap EVs would be really fucking nice.
My biggest problem with China is that they want to sell to us, but won’t allow us to sell to them and they are stealing IPs left and right.
I’m all for lowering prices for consumers, but not at the expense of enriching the tyrannical CCP.
We need to improve and encourage trade with governments that believe in democracy.
Russia and China ain’t it.
The thing with China imo is that part of the reason they’ve been so attractive for manufacturing has been that it’s cheaper there, and the reason that it’s cheaper there has been lower wages and lower safety standards. That’s bad for pretty much everyone except for companies making stuff in China, and consumers getting stuff cheaper than is probably viable with more ethical labor practices (and even then it’s not really much of a benefit to them, because those people need jobs too and so the negative impact there offsets that). It is sadly ironic that a country who’s stated ideology originally claimed to be in the interests of labor (not that it actually was, but they talked that way), has made it’s competitive advantage in the global economy pretty much be being a way around labor protections and unions.
Something I could see being potentially useful, then, would be a tariff policy that was roughly “if you make stuff using labor that’s significantly lower paid than our wages, or with worse safety standards, we raise the price to be around what it would be if it had been made to our labor standards, so that there is no advantage in not keeping things fair for our workforce and yours”. I’ve never really been a fan of things like tariffs, because I know that they mainly just make things more expensive and can reduce pressure to compete by domestic companies, but at the same time, the current system both makes the US dependent on goods made by exploited foreign workers as most people don’t have good enough jobs to afford much better than that which is made cheap by that exploitation, and incentives those foreign countries to keep their people trapped in those conditions and not raise standards, to avoid losing that competitive advantage to another country that does not.
Yeah that is something that bothers me. A lot of the affordability isn’t necessarily because of lower quality imo, but because they pay shit wages. It’s why labor is cheaper in China and companies want to outsource there. They don’t pay their workers adequately or have the and level of workplace protections.
Well I don’t want to pay 30k dollars for a freaking car
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The thing is ev’s are as affordable as how much you’re paying for your current car PLUS GAS.
I drive 30 to 40k a year due to work. My previous car was a regular gas powered 2021 Kia Sportage. It got 26 to 28 mpg. I paid 500 a month for it plus around 800 for gas a month. That’s 1300 dollars a month for my gas which doesn’t include maintenance, tires, repairs and insurance.
I bought a 2023 VW ID4 and pay 800 a month for it and don’t pay for gas. It’s about an additional 100 for charging exclusively at home aside from an occasional charge at the fast charger here and there.
I’m saving 400 a month because I don’t have to buy gas. So even though my payment is way more and the car is double the cost of my previous car I’m still saving money.
I would suspect this could be an option for many people. We have to stop looking at EVs as just cars in and of themselves and start taking into account that we don’t have to put gas in them.
$800/mo in GASOLINE. You spend half what I make in a month to drive.
Dude. I’m sorry man. 1600 bucks a month in my opinion is working for free. I don’t know what country you live in but disability pays better than that in America.
Also, did spend. I no longer buy gas and it’s a kind of freedom I can’t even begin to describe.
Nor Musk…
In what world are Tesla’s “cheap”?
I think they mean Musk/Tesla doesn’t want China to flood the US with cheap EVs due the competition it would bring.
Exactly…
Please be electric trains, please be electric trains, please be electric trains
So long as they are grid based and not using batteries I will agree. The incessant want to shove fucking batteries into everything is real stupid sometimes.
This is a special case that makes sense, but sounds pretty cool: https://newatlas.com/transport/fortescue-wae-infinity-train-electric/
Yeah that is kinda neat though as you noted kind og a special case.
This is what you should expect when your businesses and government not only refuse to adapt to new technology, but actually go out of their way to hinder it. You don’t want to embrace change and adapt? Fine. You’ll be replaced by those who do.
You mean all the tech they quiet literally stole from Tesla and others?
China isn’t innovating here. It’s cheaper because they use extremely cheap parts and labor.
It doesn’t matter where the technology came from. Most US car manufacturers shunned it. Foreign businesses saw it for what it was and moved with it.
And cracked the whip on their slave labor workforce to build them.
Holy christ the media is overall doing a completely shit job of clearly presenting what’s actually going on here. I’ll help:
The PRC is engaging in economic warfare by heavily subsidizing export EV production costs for basically all of their car manufacturers, in the interest of pushing literally everyone else out of the market.
That’s it. That’s the story.
It is entirely rational and justified to enact trade protections to combat those tactics.
And before anyone tries to gatcha me on being pro-American car manufacturer or whatever: again, no. The split is China/not-China. They’re undercutting EVERYONE else intentionally.
Where are the incentives for US automakers?
There aren’t any export subsidies.
It is beyond me why so many people are refusing to acknowledge that export subsidies and domestic rebates are entirely different things. I know that it’s nuanced. But there is a meaningful difference, and in a geopolitical sense, the difference is actually quite immense. Pretending it’s the same is to going to make it the same.
China has an excess EVs and are looking for places to offload their inventory and contracts for the supporting charging infrastructure.
No… China is looking to put everyone else who’s manufacturing EVs out of business - or at least, severely diminish their market share. It’s economic warfare. It’s quite obvious.
I’m a little surprised, but also amused, at the intense pushback I’m getting from some people on this topic. It seems to fall into two categories:
- sinophiles
- “leftists” who are oddly focused on wanting a product for less than it actually costs to make, and damn the larger scale geopolitical implications.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The Chinese auto industry is the largest in the world, and roughly 30 percent of the country’s vehicle sales are electric.
Most of the world’s EV batteries are manufactured in China, and many of the country’s most popular models have been praised for their design, functionality, and price.
Earlier this year, Tesla CEO Elon Musk — who sells most of his cars in China — warned that Chinese manufacturers would “demolish” domestic rivals without trade barriers.
The concern is that Chinese EVs are so cheap — BYD’s Seagull sells for around $10,000 — that domestic automakers couldn’t possibly compete.
And earlier this year, the administration launched an investigation into the potential security risks posed by smart car technology produced in China.
The new tariffs are also expected to apply to other clean energy goods, like solar panels and critical minerals, the Journal reports.
The original article contains 480 words, the summary contains 138 words. Saved 71%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
That fucking sucks.
Why?
I want to be able to purchase an affordable EV
Article somehow casting Biden in a negative light… Is this balanced reporting? No, it’s just ozma posting about his crush. Again.
When I think of how often Chinese-made electronics fail under normal use, I don’t want them sold here either. We would have cars catching fire left and right.
When I think of how often Chinese-made electronics fail under normal use
Incredibly uncommonly?
Are you forgetting that a LOT of our devices have been “Made in China” for a LOOONG time now?
Im no tankie but c’mon, I get “chinesium” comes from a grain of truth but you also have to factor in the sheer volume of cheap electronics sold that’s made there vs how little really fails in a dangerous or spectacular fashion. In no small part to local regulations not letting unsafe shit that catches fire be sold, usually.
It’s one of those things where yea cheap Chinese products probably fail often but the more expensive Chinese products are quality stuff. I bought some camping lamps from a Chinese company, just a couple bucks more expensive than the chela stuff and they feel and are quality. Been using them for a couple years now and they’re still as good as when I got them.
That’s exactly it though. These cars would be made as cheaply as possible. That’s exactly the type of Chinese stuff that fails.
Oh for sure, I don’t doubt it if they’re cheap but presumably there would also be more expensive higher tier Chinese cars. I just want more competition to hopefully drive down prices.
When I was looking for a cheap used car a few years ago, I just wanted something simple. I was only concerned with its gas mileage and that I could repair it if it broke down. Reliability is important but often is influenced by anecdote.
Anyways, luckily I wanted a manual, which are often the most basic version of a car, and I found a barebones Mitsubishi mirage that was years newer than the comparable american car for the same price, with less miles, and gets 40+ mpg.
Why? In my opinion, its cause the interior looks identical to any cheap american car from the 90s, old style radio and all, and a 3! Cylinder engine. Everything my wife hates about this car is a positive to me: simple, efficient, cheap. She things its ugly of course.
I think what the complaint here is, is that no American car company makes a simple, efficient, cheap car. They aren’t even trying to, and its extremely obvious.
My point here is, I hope they make them as cheap as they can, thats what I want.
Yeah, piece of shit iPhones /s
I don’t blame him. Low quality, poor safety standards, made in sweatshops by who-the-fuck-knows, not good for American jobs. China can keep their junky clunkers.
I thought you were talking about Tesla for a minute there on every bullet point until your last sentence
How is this a bad position? US folk with their need to consume? Shut it down.
