Well the entire multiplatform astroturfing campaign from people who call themselves leftists worked! Democrats stayed home instead of voting.
Now Palestine will be completely flattened with 0 resistance at all, and redoubled support and bombs for Israel! Way to go! You really showed your support for Palestine by helping this happen!
They will probably come back saying “it wasn’t our fault, we just pointed out the truth” while they shouted that a vote for Harris was a vote for genocide [so don’t vote for harris] from every platform that they used.
Look around. Technocrit is already trying to ragebait, TheOubliette was gloating in another thread, and a bunch of other .ml shitheads are showing up to this thread now. Fucking disgusting, deplorable individuals.
Yeah, I guess I spoke too soon. I’ll probably just start blocking them. Something that I normally do not do. But I will make an exception for these clowns.
And I love how Democrats’ first move after losing is to blame said leftists. We were the only ones calling out the bad moves of Kamala’s campaign from the beginning and warning what might happen if she didn’t adopt a Walz ticket (or mostly a Walz ticket).
Democrats did this to themselves. It’s the reason why they kept supporting a corpse of a candidate with Joe Biden for so long until the first presidential debate, and it’s also the reason why Hillary was picked over Bernie in 2016 at the DNC.
Leftists weren’t the issue. Democrats’ own willingness to ignore what was happening right in front of them was the issue.
We were the only ones calling out the bad moves of Kamala’s campaign from the beginning
What would have happened if you hadn’t done that? What would have happened if the average dumbass center left capitalis liberal had heard nothing but praise for Kamala from the left?
She would have won. You had a choice. But you decided to tell the truth even when it cost trans people their lives.
Would you have told the truth to the Gestapo asking if there are Jews in your basement?
Nah Trump won the popular vote too. This has nothing to do with voters staying at home. Trump won on the economy. I went to the gas station before voting yesterday and a redbull was $4 and a small bag of chips $3. I knew at that point there is a good chance that Trump would win.
Mmm now explain to me how you were going to get harris to shift on inflation, a position she already signalled she’d fire the most effective agent we have for it. (Khan).
When you wouldnt even be budged on mass murder? God do i dread the conversations about how to fight inflation effectively due to corporate greed. That is a hard and incredibly nuanced conversation with no clear answer. Gaza is easy in comparison.
You’d just blame us for undermining harris over inflation instead of gaza. The topic doesn’t matter.
You jnow the most effective way to get people to vote? Give. Them. What. They. Want.
For Michigan it was gaza, for Pennsylvania it was inflation. Sadly your too politically unaware and rather just blame others for not seeing reason than challenging your candidate for their shit platform.
Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
The democrats are so impossibly spineless that they wait for polls and focus groups for their talking points instead of standing up for their principles (if they really exist).
Dems spent the entire campaign trying to compromise with and convince right wingers acting in bad faith instead of just working towards progressive policies. They once and again let the GOP set the tone for every conversation.
The Dem’s attitude towards the genocide in Gaza is just a piece of evidence that shows their way of thinking: the dog race and politicking is more important that doing the right thing.
So stop blaming the voters and take a deep look into your own values and principles because the nation being obliterated right now in the middle east and the people who stand for them even at great cost to themselves are definitely not to blame.
This had nothing to do with Gaza. This election shows Gaza doesn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. Not even your own human rights mattered. This was inflation, housing, and (further on the right) xenophobia. Clinton was right, “it’s the economy stupid” (even though Dems are better for the economy).
Cause they voted. Or didn’t. Ultimately the choice is with them and a large majority of people decided that they’ll vote for rapist, racist, authoritarian fuckwit or sit the fuck home because it doesn’t matter who is running the government.
You can talk strategies and blame Democratic party till cows come home but at the end of the day, the people have to choose the least bad option.
Drag, calling @BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world a “Nazi” like this isn’t justified and isn’t the level of civility we expect in this community. Absent other factors like bigotry and disinformation, I try to maintain uncivil comments so there’s an understandable continuity in the comments and so people aren’t afraid to fully express themselves on the sorts of controversial issues discussed. It’s more than understandable to be angry at anyone who enabled this impending disaster to happen. What’s not is that Blitzo (the ‘O’ is silent) thoroughly debunked every misconception Drag had about them, and then Drag never apologized, especially after realizing they’re likely going through a similar level of trauma over the election that Drag is.
Drag doesn’t want to spend another minute talking or thinking about Blitzo, please. You’re replying to a 26 day old comment. Blitzo spent yesterday yelling at drag, misgendering drag without apologising, and telling other people that drag refers to dragself in the third person, when drag actually uses peron-independent pronouns, and then praising themself about it. Drag doesn’t actually want an apology for any of that, drag just wants to never think about Blitzo again, please.
First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
Because it’s only one issue out of many that need to be addressed (I didn’t say fixed because IMHO the IDF are doing pretty good work eradicating Hamas, all things considered).
You guys need to take care of your housing, healthcare, gerrymandering, public transport, student loans, separation of religion and government and a truckload of other things that I don’t think Trump has any interest in improving.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that Trump won’t be any “better” in regards to the situation in Gaza and the rest of the middle east.
So the voters that didn’t vote Harris purely because of the Gaza issue are to blame for their short sightedness.
I was referring to our arab brothers and sisters.
But if you want to open it up to the middle class democrats have repeatedly failed to support id be happy to give you that. They to are victims.
Or maybe, like they normally do, the Democrats failed to rally their base to vote, or didn’t give them enough incentive to get out and vote.
Biden had 4 years to make meaningful progress for the American people, and whether or not he did is irrelevant because Americans don’t feel better off than 4 years ago. Democrats spent the last year screaming about the economy doing amazing, while ignoring all of the polls showing Americans don’t feel that way.
Democrats spent the last year sending weapons shipment after weapons shipment to Israel to bomb Palestinian children, despite polls showing the majority of Americans wanted contingencies on the shipments. And the Democrats instead lectured their constituents about how what they’re seeing and hearing isn’t actually what it is, and it’ll be worse with the other guy!
Democrats spent the last 4 years doing nothing but try to return to the same status quo that isn’t working for the average American anymore. Biden’s hubris took the decision out of the people’s hands, and we were given a candidate we didn’t choose and told to shut up and like it because “fAsCiSm.”
Well, congratulations Democrat Party, we fell to fascism because that’s obviously a better alternative than actually putting forward progressive policies. And whether you like to hear it or not, the Republican voter supporting this fascist movement is doing so because they want change in this country too.
Only difference being, the Republicans are actually “progressing” their party along like their constituents want. Maybe the Democrats should try listening to their constituents for once and, idk, see if that maybe works in their favor for once?
No, the base let themselves very much get rallied.
They had a candidate that said “I’m not going to stop the genocide in Gaza” and one that went “I am fully pro-genocide in Gaza, and I want to burn it all down”. And they all rallied behind the second one. This does tell me, as someone not from the US, one thing: A lot of voters in the US really dislike people from Gaza and want them to die. Fuck you people. Yes, I blame you voters. Fuck you.
No, the Democrats let their base get rallied by the Republicans, I don’t blame the voters at all.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home. And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
I voted Harris, btw, but not because I liked her particularly much, and I think that’s a big part of it. Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home
That’s the exact same thing in a first-past-the-post voting system, sorry. I mean granted, if you wanted to support Trump anyways, you saved yourself the walk. Congrats. But that’s the only difference, you supported Trump either way.
And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
And again it comes down to a singular issue? Again, that’s why I blame the voters: If people so readily toss their intellect aside and become single-issue voters, feeding directly into this us-vs-them polemic that is so prevalent in the far right and the US in general, then they really ought to at least not blame anybody but themselves. It’s easy to ignore a lot of good news if you hyperfocus on a single bad thing and just put your fingers into your ears.
More so if you actually vote to make that single issue you care about worse. But hey, I’m not an american, apparently the majority wants to Genocide Turbo Edition in Gaza.
Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
And again, this makes no sense. Hence me blaming voters for their own failings. It’s like with the Brexit, although there at least there was the added thing that nobody expected the vote could ever come out as yes, so most just did not bother to go vote, felt unnecessary. Here, they very much knew that if they don’t go to vote they’re effectively voting for the orange potato fascist. And they still did it. So they’re trump voters now. Stamped and classified. And I blame trump voters.
(edit)
I’ll go a step further: You are a voter ought to actively not want elections to be about marketing. Rather, you should be tracking whether the past electorate has actually improved things.
So, under Biden:
Single families have more money than before.
Cost of living has gone down (despite the high inflation, which came out of Trump’s administration after all, who had a huge bump to cost of living right at the tail end of his administration and yes, we’re still not back to where we were before but c’mon, it got stricly bad under Trump and massively better again under Biden, what magical miracle did people expect after the potato ruined things so much?!)
Violent crime, in particular homicides, are far down.
Green spending is up by a ton. Still less than ideal, but damn did they fund a lot of new green tech, and it shows. Wasn’t it something like 96% of new energy installed last year was green?
Social inequality decreased. (yeah I know this is surprising, which just goes to show how little we care about actual data and what sheep we all are)
Health care went up significantly (after it went down again under Trump)
I mean, how many positive news do people really need? At what point is it okay if I blame the idiotic voters who actively choose to ignore it and listen to the right-wing media feeding them rage bait?
Yeah and due to it being FPTP, you officially now like Trump, since that’s how your voting system works. You don’t get to pick “neither”, your name is automatically under the winning candidate as the winner takes all. I understand the reasoning, but it doesn’t work for this system, you have to actively vote for the less-bad option to avoid the more-bad going into office.
Even if you very much do not like less-bad in office, either. That would take an actual system reform to fix though. But hey don’t worry, you’re getting that soon. Just in a very monkey-paw-curls way.
It’s almost as if, and I know this is wild to americans, neither choice would have fixed that you’re a country in north america, either. Maybe some things should not be used as a decisionmaker between these two candidates.
What I will say is that I can very much understand the urge to then not go vote (seems the democrates are missing ~20 mil votes that did not go to the republicans), and it takes actual knowledge of the voting system to know that this is not a useful thing to do in a first-past-the-post system, though it can be in other types. Hence the need to restrain oneself and still vote, just for the least bad option if no good one is available.
Look, you can check my older comments to understand where I’m coming from. I’m open to listening and perhaps we both can learn something from all of this.
Because you fall into the same “but what about?!”-thing modern far right excels at.
You myopically focus on a single issue, trying desperately to use it as a crowbar to dislodge an otherwise sensible point, ignoring that everything is inherently a compromise, in particular in a 2-party system. Hence any voter who is not as easily blinded - and it’s not like Harris wasn’t very open during speeches about how much the right deals in fearmongering and disinformation, going as far as openly mocking people for made-up bullshit stats they’re yelling - would be able to inform themselves and realize that:
Even if they’d like their candidate of choice to act differently about a specific issue in a specific country on the other side of the globe, there are a million other also-important issues that are strictly going to work out better under this candidate.
The candidate that now won has in fact very openly declared that he wants said genocide to accelerate and wants the IDF to “finish the job”.
So, even if we were to just focus on this particular issue, the voters very much vote pro-genocide when they vote for Trump. I love how he’s technically correct though when he says he wants to end the war in Gaza, people are just too stupid to realize how he means it.
But more importantly, and the central point I’m making, you’re under the belief that reaction to a single issue should matter. Any voter who lets this argument slide has inherently lost themselves to the populist and fascist movements as they excel at exploiting this, and in fact stoke this belief whenever they can. Politics on a large scale cannot be judged based on single issues. Because if you try to, you exactly fall into this trap. You automatically end up being barraged by appeals to emotion, constantly, and you’ll let those decide things for you.
Hence, blaming the voters. For not actually engaging with the democratic process, just with hate- and fearmongering and then wondering why that that ended up controlling them when they sought it out themselves.
The belief that everyone decrying Harris’ stance on Gaza was knowingly or unknowingly participating in enabling a worse stance on Gaza than the still-not-great one we would have gotten with her.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
By not putting the focus on the absolutely 100% guaranteed WORSE stance of the two, people enabled talking points that led, in part, to where we are now.
THAT is why so many of us screaming about harm reduction and the lesser of two evils is SO pissed off about single-issue Gaza voters not putting in for Harris.
Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good. It leads to this.
Elections are about holding your nose and making the best of a bunch of imperfect choices.
Trying to make it anything else from the top down is folly. You have to start from the bottom up. Until that happens, we will never see our way out of a two party system.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
A weapon doesn’t kill or hurt less people just because the dealer who sold/gave it away said, “Genocide is bad, okay?”
Those bombs are gonna kill and hurt people no matter if it’s the Dems or the Reps sending them to Israel. There are lots of reasons why Trump is worse, but if you’re a Palestinian it really doesn’t make a difference if the weapon that kills you came from a racist man or a woman who condemns genocide.
Edit:
So many downvotes, so many disagreeing comments, but not a single fucking person has managed to give one concrete example that explains why weapons coming from Trump is so much worse than weapons coming from Kamala, for Palestinians.
Palestinian nº1: Watchout, a bomb!
Palestinian nº2: Don’t worry, the person who send it said that genocide is bad!
Palestinian nº1: Oh, thank God! And thank you, for putting my mind at ease. For a moment I though that bomb had come from a racist, but I’m glad to hear American democracy has been saved by the democratic party! Now I can be blown to pieces with a smile on my face 🙂
Edit 2:
Here’s an article detailing the destruction in Gaza in December 2023, 11 months ago. I feel like some of you need reminding of the current reality, when you can’t even come up with concrete hypotheticals.
He literally said they should “finish the job” but we all know you’re lying and know he said that. I’m thankful for the user tagging feature in boost. I never have to give you benefit of doubt again, wasting my time reading the words of a liar.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
Because there’s no effing way Netanyahu would have posted anything like this in response to a Kamala win.
“Congratulations on history’s greatest comeback! Your historic return to the White House offers a new beginning for America and a powerful recommitment to the great alliance between Israel and America. This is a huge victory! In true friendship,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posted on social media platform X.
I asked for something concrete that Trump would do that is worse for Palestine. You still haven’t explained how a bomb from the Republicans hurts more than a bomb from the Democrats.
Again, there’s lots of reasons Trump is worse than Kamala, but weapons will kill people no matter who uses them.
You’re still blind you’ve learned nothing. Enjoy your fascism. Its not your fault people didnt vote for harris. Its their fault for not understanding how the system works. 😂 You’re hopeless. Harris lost not because of the genocide, its just an example, she lost because she didn’t give voters a reason to show up for her.
Arabs? Israel has a right to murder your family.
Young people? Sit down im speaking.
Labors? Heres 50k for you to start a business. Wat? I need to afford eggs.
Abortion? Oh wait thats protected already is most of the states in play.
Because like it or not stopping aid for Israel would have pushed all Israel supporters to Trump. Sadly apparently most Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
I don’t think this is a constructive way of looking at the situation. After all, being quiet about Netanyahu’s abuses wasn’t a winning strategy either. Besides, being scared of Israeli lobbying automatically makes you a bad leader.
Regular people don’t live reading obscure threads on Lemmy so I’m 100% sure that the effects of the comments posted by tankies here are negligible.
My point is that you can’t lose against the worst human being twice and keep blaming the electorate. If they want to lead, the dems have to stand for something instead of complaining about turnout or in general blaming anyone else but themselves. It was THEIR job to get out the vote.
Trump is a monumental POS but the dems prefer to cater to the people who voted for him instead of the people who want legitimate pro-working-class policies.
That you’ve still learned nothing from this experience. The thing we were telling you for the last month.
Harris’ needed to give people a reason to vote for her. In Wisconsin that was stopping the genocide. In Pennsylvania thats fucking reducing the cost of living, inproving wages, etc.
If we’re lucky enough to get out of this with our country in tact next time stfu up about lesser evil and demand your candidate have policies that benefit people.
In short dont be like ‘sit down im speaking’ harris, the lesser evil. And instead be more like ‘yes sir stand up trll me what you need!’
Oh prole, divest yourself from politics its not healthy for you. You lack the ability to reason cause and effect. Someone in this thread has the correct take on the democratic party and their loss and its not you. Find the post about the democrats not being self reflective and how gaza is just a proxy for the root problem with democrats. They’re obsession with data, and focus groups. Its not the voters who are wrong when you dont inspire them to show up.
Why? Does she automatically get all the votes just because she exists? You get votes by doing what your electorate wants you to do. She didn’t do that and this is the result.
Because she is no fascist. If you have the choice between a fascist and a non fascist and you dont vote you support the fascist.
In this case it is even dumber because one side tells Israel to calm it down but sadly still send weapons while the other says Israel is correct, did everything to worsen the relationships between israel and palestine even more and has a fucking settlement named after them.
She lost because americans apparently love fascism. Or at least dont care about democracy. The people who didnt vote are on the same level as MAGA.
Edit: I forgot. Same for the people who voted for a third party candidate
The difference between them is you are never getting the votes that don’t give a shit about Palestine back from Trump. His voters don’t care. Democratic voters do. When both candidates have the exact same position (and “genocide harder or lighter” isn’t a difference in position, it’s still genocide) then the issue only causes people to not vote, or look at other policies. And then you add in alienating more democrats by going further right and copying their policies. The people who like them will still vote for the republican. The people liking democratic policies will cringe and step aside.
Remember when Biden stepped down? Do you remember how unpopular he was and the massive wave of hope and support for Kamala that showed itself? Well, what the fuck did you think was gonna happen when Kamala glued herself to Biden, and tried to appeal to center right voters? They refuse to make compromises with the left, try to appeal to the center-right, and then blame the left for not voting for them; classic center/lib playbook, the same thing happens in Portugal, same thing happened in 2016 USA elections.
I thought that Democrats would win DESPITE the absolute dog shit campaign, given everything about Trump, but it was still an absolute dog shit campaign by people who claimed this was the most important election of people’s lives, but then dug their hills in ideologically and refused to compromise with people on their left.
If the situation wasn’t so dire, it would be hilarious to see the double think by Dem voters in this thread:
“How can Rep voters not hold Trump accountable despite everything he’s done!”
“It’s not the Dems fault that they lost, despite trying to appeal to the center-right instead of the left; it’s never their fault! It’s the leftists fault for not voting Dem! Kamala did nothing wrong!”
Ask yourself what do you think is going to happen next election? Answer: The Dems are going to go hard center. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Everything you said has nothing to do with the left, they are basic as shit things that event center and center-right European parties would do. I mean, what does the sentence “did green energy” even mean to you? The US is one of the largest polluters per capita in the world, installing a few solar panels means jack shit. Starting to heavily invest in public transportation, putting forth serious proposals to reduce the use of plastic, etc. would just be a start.
Meanwhile, they were also running on an anti-migration platform, just not as bad as Trump - remember how Democrats were so proud of the fact Trump shot down a Dem proposal that would reduce immigration?
Also, remember when Obama was elected on an anti-war policy in 2008? He even won a Nobel Peace Prize! And remember how Trump was elected in 2016 on a “pull back troops from the Middle East policy”, standing opposite to “Hillary the Hawk”?
Meanwhile, while most of the world condemns Israels actions, and millions of people in the US protest the US involvement in the ongoing genocide, both candidates are in favor of supporting and giving weapons to Israel.
If your argument is “but Biden was so far left”, then you’re a perfect representation of what is wrong with the Dem party and the US in general.
Edit: I almost forgot this beautiful (\s) fucking cherry on top: Dick fucking Cheney endorsed the Dems. And you seriously wanna make the argument they couldn’t have gone more left?
You think that green energy isn’t left? Debt relief isn’t left? What planet are you on? Do I have to say left [of center]? Jeez.
Yes it’s a start. What do you expect? The entire power grid and entire vehicle fleet to be redone in 2 years? Things take time. And what happens now that the start is undone and we have to start from scratch in, hopefully, another 4 years. This conversation is shaping up to the old classic of you saying “but they didn’t do everything, everywhere, all at once”.
Also, remember when Obama was elected on an anti-war policy in 2008? He even won a Nobel Peace Prize! And remember how Trump was elected in 2016 on a “pull back troops from the Middle East policy”, standing opposite to “Hillary the Hawk”?
Jeez this is some select history. Obama won on “hope”. Trump won because he appealed to the middle class and Hillary did not.
This election shows that Gaza didn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. They didn’t even register, no one cared. Even your own human rights didn’t matter. It came down to inflation, housing, and further on the right xenophobia. Clinton was right “It’s the economy, stupid”.
If your argument is “but Biden was so far left”,
Ah strawman. Well that bad faith means that this will be my last reply. No point in discussing when you make shit up.
I did not say “so far left”. Do a ctrl+f and you won’t find those words. I said: “If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc”. If the left can’t show up to support things like that, you’re not going to get anything further left. Not gonna happen. Not how it works. You walk before you run, you test the waters before you take the plunge, and now that we saw it doesn’t get you votes (midterms or next election), guess what fucking direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Dick fucking Cheney endorsed the Dems.
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr maybe it was because even Dick fucking Cheney saw that Trump is a fascist. It wasn’t based on policy, it was Trump’s fascism. I’m having a hard time deciding if you’re just horribly off base or bad faith. Either way, ciao.
You think that green energy isn’t left? Debt relief isn’t left? What planet are you on? Do I have to say left [of center]? Jeez.
No, it’s not left. I’ve already explained to you why. If I then drive a monster truck everywhere and eat steak for every meal, but then I install a solar panel in my house, does that make me an environmentalist?
This election shows that Gaza didn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. They didn’t even register, no one cared. Even your own human rights didn’t matter. It came down to inflation, housing, and further on the right xenophobia. Clinton was right “It’s the economy, stupid”.
Jesus, I really do honestly try not to be rude, but the amount of stupidity in one paragraph mixed with the arrogance is off the damn charts. Firstly, Hillary, the person you’re quoting, lost the fucking election; secondly, neither candidate in this election was against selling weapons to Israel, both of them together had less than 50% of American citizens voting for them, and one of them - the one that has the largest overlap with pro-Palestine voters - lost the popular vote to the Republicans, which hadn’t happened to Democrats since 2004, and your conclusion is “Gaza didn’t matter and here’s another Dem loser’s take on it!”. Careful that you don’t get hemorrhoids with how hard you’re shitting these takes out.
I did not say “so far left”. Do a ctrl+f and you won’t find those words. I said: “If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc”.
Yeah, which implies those are very leftist measures and policies. Would you say “if the leftists don’t show up to support racial segregation (…)” - no you fucking wouldn’t, cuz it’s obviously not a fucking leftist measure, is it? And neither are those, they are measures even most centrists agree with.
guess what fucking direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
They’ll sprint to the center because that’s historically what they always do, in this and other elections, and in other countries as well - refuse to compromise with the left, appeal to center and center right, and then blame the left when they lose. This isn’t news for me and plenty of other people budy, we predicted this might happen and what the reaction would be - the only thing I didn’t predict is that so many people would still support Trump - but plenty of people literally saw the writing on the wall about the support for Kamala and called attention to it, but the democrats don’t want to accept reality, just as they didn’t accept it in 2016.
the amount of stupidity in one paragraph mixed with the arrogance is off the damn charts. Firstly, Hillary, the person you’re quoting, lost the fucking election;
I know I said I’m out but this is too good. It was BILL Clinton that said that. The irony LMAO. Ok peace.
Fair enough, nice gotcha, it still doesn’t change anything that I said.
Also, I forgot to add it to the other comment, and then I was just going to leave it out, but now I’m here again, so:
Yes it’s a start. What do you expect? The entire power grid and entire vehicle fleet to be redone in 2 years? Things take time
Fuck your “things take time”, especially in a country that is both one of the richest and most polluting countries per capita in the world. A bunch of the world is becoming uninhabitable, storms become more frequent, some places are having a harder and harder time growing food, panama had to relocate people who lived on an island due to rising sea levels, and things are going to get exponentially worse, but “things take time guys, we can’t rush it!”
Let me ask you this: are you vegan, avoid using plastic as much as possible, use public transport/walk/bike whenever possible, try to minimize your consumption as much as possible, try to buy locally, and overall do you just try to ethically consume? Or are you one of those “it’s the government and corporations who have to do something”? Because you certainly can’t be the second and then, when talking about one of the richest and most polluting countries in the world, say we need to take things slow.
Well, what the fuck did you think was gonna happen when Kamala glued herself to Biden, and tried to appeal to center right voters? They refuse to make compromises with the left, try to appeal to the center-right, and then blame the left for not voting for them; classic center/lib playbook, the same thing happens in Portugal, same thing happened in 2016 USA elections.
The thing is, I strongly agree with you AND the person you replied to because although I’ve been agape at watching Kamala sprint away from the left from essentially the moment her candidacy was announced, and I think Democrat leadership is FAR too in the pocket of corporate interests, and far too welcoming of Republicans, she’s still so very obviously a better choice than Trump that I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I’d have thought that women alone would have pushed Kamala over the top due to the whole Roe v. Wade thing.
In summary - all my grumpiness at the DNC and Kamala for ignoring the left again was still miles short of what would have propelled me to vote for Trump or enable a Trump win.
Same, the difference is i knew that distinction wouldnt bring people out. If you, I’m assuming, a committed voter were reluctant about voting for harris despite everything. What does that mean for people who are fairly indifferent to voting? 😞😭😞😭😞😭
Oh I wasn’t reluctant, there was never any doubt. I just wasn’t happy. But the thing is - the things I was unhappy about don’t matter to the folks who don’t really follow politics. Whatever their reasons were, they weren’t my reasons.
In summary - all my grumpiness at the DNC and Kamala for ignoring the left again was still miles short of what would have propelled me to vote for Trump or enable a Trump win.
Yeah, as I said, even I though Kamala would win despite everything because Trump is… well, Trump, and I honestly did not think anywhere near this many people would vote for him again. If yesterday someone had told me he was going to win the popular vote, I would not have come anywhere close to believing them. It’s extremely depressing to see how many people still choose to vote for Trump and back him after everything he has done and said he was gonna do.
I find it very odd you thought that. The people who voted for him are primarily the people who voted for him in 2020. no? similar level of votes. the indifferent souls didn’t turn out this time because democrats did democrat things.
This shit exactly. They literally gave us nothing to vote for. All they really had was abortion, but that’s fuckin it? No other decent policy. And now I wonder if they see this outcome do they think they weren’t right wing enough? Stupid.
Harris and Biden put billions of dollars into a renewable energy fund, and Harris was promising a 20 grand subsidy for first home buyers. It’s not nothing. Y’all just chose not to listen.
They think being “right” is more important than the horrifying shit that is to come. It really seems like these so-called “progressives” do not grasp what actual fascism and autocracy looks like. They think this is a good thing because it’ll make the Democratic party rethink their priorities or something, when in reality, we will be lucky if there is a Democratic party or even a real election in 2 or 4 years.
This shit is over, there will be no progressive party now.
Dear lemmy.ml: I think my neighbour is keeping a Jew in their basement
Then don’t tell everyone, dumbass
How DARE you? As a staunch leftist, I will always tell the truth! I will NEVER put the consequences of my actions over the NECESSITY of telling truth to power.
A firefighter hacks the door down and reaches their hand out to pull you free and carry you outside.
And you ask “What’s in it for me?”
I truly don’t think you people grasp how meaningless all this text your wasting is.
This happened because people are stupid. That’s it. That’s the long and short of it. They have no, absolutely no concept whatsoever of how bad things are about to get. There’s no world where the citizenship understands what fascism is where Kamala needed to do anything different than she did.
At this point, I truly don’t think it matters. None of this shit matters. The problem is the people.
You’ll probably be permabanned from the instance for saying this but obvious pro trump trolls will get a comment deleted once a day so it all balances out /s
Well the entire multiplatform astroturfing campaign from people who call themselves leftists worked! Democrats stayed home instead of voting.
Now Palestine will be completely flattened with 0 resistance at all, and redoubled support and bombs for Israel! Way to go! You really showed your support for Palestine by helping this happen!
They will probably come back saying “it wasn’t our fault, we just pointed out the truth” while they shouted that a vote for Harris was a vote for genocide [so don’t vote for harris] from every platform that they used.
Trump also promised to talk with Russia about solving the Ukraine problem, wanna bet that Russia just keeps going west? :D
Yup. I spent the last month or so tagging them, and I have not seen a single one today.
Look around. Technocrit is already trying to ragebait, TheOubliette was gloating in another thread, and a bunch of other .ml shitheads are showing up to this thread now. Fucking disgusting, deplorable individuals.
Yeah, I guess I spoke too soon. I’ll probably just start blocking them. Something that I normally do not do. But I will make an exception for these clowns.
Most of the leftists I know voted for Kamala.
And I love how Democrats’ first move after losing is to blame said leftists. We were the only ones calling out the bad moves of Kamala’s campaign from the beginning and warning what might happen if she didn’t adopt a Walz ticket (or mostly a Walz ticket).
Democrats did this to themselves. It’s the reason why they kept supporting a corpse of a candidate with Joe Biden for so long until the first presidential debate, and it’s also the reason why Hillary was picked over Bernie in 2016 at the DNC.
Leftists weren’t the issue. Democrats’ own willingness to ignore what was happening right in front of them was the issue.
What would have happened if you hadn’t done that? What would have happened if the average dumbass center left capitalis liberal had heard nothing but praise for Kamala from the left?
She would have won. You had a choice. But you decided to tell the truth even when it cost trans people their lives.
Would you have told the truth to the Gestapo asking if there are Jews in your basement?
Nah Trump won the popular vote too. This has nothing to do with voters staying at home. Trump won on the economy. I went to the gas station before voting yesterday and a redbull was $4 and a small bag of chips $3. I knew at that point there is a good chance that Trump would win.
It has, as voter turnout could be significantly better. It’s not yet clear what it is, but so far it doesn’t look very good.
What in saying is that it probably doesn’t have much to do with Gaza. People voted on the economy.
Mmm now explain to me how you were going to get harris to shift on inflation, a position she already signalled she’d fire the most effective agent we have for it. (Khan).
When you wouldnt even be budged on mass murder? God do i dread the conversations about how to fight inflation effectively due to corporate greed. That is a hard and incredibly nuanced conversation with no clear answer. Gaza is easy in comparison.
You’d just blame us for undermining harris over inflation instead of gaza. The topic doesn’t matter.
You jnow the most effective way to get people to vote? Give. Them. What. They. Want.
For Michigan it was gaza, for Pennsylvania it was inflation. Sadly your too politically unaware and rather just blame others for not seeing reason than challenging your candidate for their shit platform.
Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
The democrats are so impossibly spineless that they wait for polls and focus groups for their talking points instead of standing up for their principles (if they really exist).
Dems spent the entire campaign trying to compromise with and convince right wingers acting in bad faith instead of just working towards progressive policies. They once and again let the GOP set the tone for every conversation.
The Dem’s attitude towards the genocide in Gaza is just a piece of evidence that shows their way of thinking: the dog race and politicking is more important that doing the right thing.
So stop blaming the voters and take a deep look into your own values and principles because the nation being obliterated right now in the middle east and the people who stand for them even at great cost to themselves are definitely not to blame.
The simple answer is you blame people for the things they do. Kind of fucking basic.
Yeah harris should have ran a better campaign with less genocide and more pro labor policies.
What actions have you taken to save lives in Gaza?
If you didn’t vote for Harris, the answer is absolutely fucking nothing of consequence.
They literally voted for it. You can’t say don’t blame the people who chose it. Blame both.
This had nothing to do with Gaza. This election shows Gaza doesn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. Not even your own human rights mattered. This was inflation, housing, and (further on the right) xenophobia. Clinton was right, “it’s the economy stupid” (even though Dems are better for the economy).
Cause they voted. Or didn’t. Ultimately the choice is with them and a large majority of people decided that they’ll vote for rapist, racist, authoritarian fuckwit or sit the fuck home because it doesn’t matter who is running the government.
You can talk strategies and blame Democratic party till cows come home but at the end of the day, the people have to choose the least bad option.
And if they weren’t willing to choose the least bad option, I think that says more about the least bad option than it does about the worst option.
No
So, her failing to be more popular than fascism is the fault of the voting base… Makes sense.
Tell me again how you fail to clear that bar, and how that’s the voters fault?
Treating politics as reality show entertainment is fault of the voting base, yes.
Democracy requires informed voters and Americans have shown to be anything but that.
Yes. The voters preferring fascism over liberalism is the voters’ fault. If the voters weren’t fascists and fascist apologists, Kamala would have won.
Today 71 million fascists, 66 million leftists, and 107 million fascism-apologists decided on the POTUS.
In Nazi Germany, the Jewish survivors had a word for people who didn’t vote against Hitler: Nazis.
Drag, calling @BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world a “Nazi” like this isn’t justified and isn’t the level of civility we expect in this community. Absent other factors like bigotry and disinformation, I try to maintain uncivil comments so there’s an understandable continuity in the comments and so people aren’t afraid to fully express themselves on the sorts of controversial issues discussed. It’s more than understandable to be angry at anyone who enabled this impending disaster to happen. What’s not is that Blitzo (the ‘O’ is silent) thoroughly debunked every misconception Drag had about them, and then Drag never apologized, especially after realizing they’re likely going through a similar level of trauma over the election that Drag is.
Drag doesn’t want to spend another minute talking or thinking about Blitzo, please. You’re replying to a 26 day old comment. Blitzo spent yesterday yelling at drag, misgendering drag without apologising, and telling other people that drag refers to dragself in the third person, when drag actually uses peron-independent pronouns, and then praising themself about it. Drag doesn’t actually want an apology for any of that, drag just wants to never think about Blitzo again, please.
First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Nobody fucking cares that you voted Democrat dude, you’re still a fucking idiot.
Because it’s only one issue out of many that need to be addressed (I didn’t say fixed because IMHO the IDF are doing pretty good work eradicating Hamas, all things considered).
You guys need to take care of your housing, healthcare, gerrymandering, public transport, student loans, separation of religion and government and a truckload of other things that I don’t think Trump has any interest in improving. And you can bet your bottom dollar that Trump won’t be any “better” in regards to the situation in Gaza and the rest of the middle east.
So the voters that didn’t vote Harris purely because of the Gaza issue are to blame for their short sightedness.
Okay so blame the arabs in Wisconsin. Got it. Now do Pennsylvania. Why did they go trump. Tell me more mr oracle.
What the fuck are you talking about? I answered a pretty specific question which had nothing go do with Arabs in Wisconsin…
I was putting a mirror in front of your face about what you just did. which was blame victims an act as if it was the moral thing.
Blame victims? American citizens who didn’t vote Harris are victims?
I was referring to our arab brothers and sisters. But if you want to open it up to the middle class democrats have repeatedly failed to support id be happy to give you that. They to are victims.
Whatever dude, you do you.
This post is a really good example of how the disinformation campaign actually worked on people and created this believe. Fascinating. And terrifying.
Or maybe, like they normally do, the Democrats failed to rally their base to vote, or didn’t give them enough incentive to get out and vote.
Biden had 4 years to make meaningful progress for the American people, and whether or not he did is irrelevant because Americans don’t feel better off than 4 years ago. Democrats spent the last year screaming about the economy doing amazing, while ignoring all of the polls showing Americans don’t feel that way.
Democrats spent the last year sending weapons shipment after weapons shipment to Israel to bomb Palestinian children, despite polls showing the majority of Americans wanted contingencies on the shipments. And the Democrats instead lectured their constituents about how what they’re seeing and hearing isn’t actually what it is, and it’ll be worse with the other guy!
Democrats spent the last 4 years doing nothing but try to return to the same status quo that isn’t working for the average American anymore. Biden’s hubris took the decision out of the people’s hands, and we were given a candidate we didn’t choose and told to shut up and like it because “fAsCiSm.”
Well, congratulations Democrat Party, we fell to fascism because that’s obviously a better alternative than actually putting forward progressive policies. And whether you like to hear it or not, the Republican voter supporting this fascist movement is doing so because they want change in this country too.
Only difference being, the Republicans are actually “progressing” their party along like their constituents want. Maybe the Democrats should try listening to their constituents for once and, idk, see if that maybe works in their favor for once?
No, the base let themselves very much get rallied.
They had a candidate that said “I’m not going to stop the genocide in Gaza” and one that went “I am fully pro-genocide in Gaza, and I want to burn it all down”. And they all rallied behind the second one. This does tell me, as someone not from the US, one thing: A lot of voters in the US really dislike people from Gaza and want them to die. Fuck you people. Yes, I blame you voters. Fuck you.
No, the Democrats let their base get rallied by the Republicans, I don’t blame the voters at all.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home. And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
I voted Harris, btw, but not because I liked her particularly much, and I think that’s a big part of it. Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
That’s the exact same thing in a first-past-the-post voting system, sorry. I mean granted, if you wanted to support Trump anyways, you saved yourself the walk. Congrats. But that’s the only difference, you supported Trump either way.
And again it comes down to a singular issue? Again, that’s why I blame the voters: If people so readily toss their intellect aside and become single-issue voters, feeding directly into this us-vs-them polemic that is so prevalent in the far right and the US in general, then they really ought to at least not blame anybody but themselves. It’s easy to ignore a lot of good news if you hyperfocus on a single bad thing and just put your fingers into your ears.
More so if you actually vote to make that single issue you care about worse. But hey, I’m not an american, apparently the majority wants to Genocide Turbo Edition in Gaza.
And again, this makes no sense. Hence me blaming voters for their own failings. It’s like with the Brexit, although there at least there was the added thing that nobody expected the vote could ever come out as yes, so most just did not bother to go vote, felt unnecessary. Here, they very much knew that if they don’t go to vote they’re effectively voting for the orange potato fascist. And they still did it. So they’re trump voters now. Stamped and classified. And I blame trump voters.
(edit)
I’ll go a step further: You are a voter ought to actively not want elections to be about marketing. Rather, you should be tracking whether the past electorate has actually improved things.
So, under Biden:
I mean, how many positive news do people really need? At what point is it okay if I blame the idiotic voters who actively choose to ignore it and listen to the right-wing media feeding them rage bait?
Hey friend, guess what didn’t win you the election? Your voting strategy under fptp voting.
It only works if people like you. We don’t like you. Cheers. You brought this onto yourself just like the DNC.
Yeah and due to it being FPTP, you officially now like Trump, since that’s how your voting system works. You don’t get to pick “neither”, your name is automatically under the winning candidate as the winner takes all. I understand the reasoning, but it doesn’t work for this system, you have to actively vote for the less-bad option to avoid the more-bad going into office.
Even if you very much do not like less-bad in office, either. That would take an actual system reform to fix though. But hey don’t worry, you’re getting that soon. Just in a very monkey-paw-curls way.
i like how depending on what day it is if i am voting harris i support genocide but if i dont support harris i also support genocide.
It’s almost as if, and I know this is wild to americans, neither choice would have fixed that you’re a country in north america, either. Maybe some things should not be used as a decisionmaker between these two candidates.
What I will say is that I can very much understand the urge to then not go vote (seems the democrates are missing ~20 mil votes that did not go to the republicans), and it takes actual knowledge of the voting system to know that this is not a useful thing to do in a first-past-the-post system, though it can be in other types. Hence the need to restrain oneself and still vote, just for the least bad option if no good one is available.
What belief, may I ask?
Look, you can check my older comments to understand where I’m coming from. I’m open to listening and perhaps we both can learn something from all of this.
Because you fall into the same “but what about?!”-thing modern far right excels at.
You myopically focus on a single issue, trying desperately to use it as a crowbar to dislodge an otherwise sensible point, ignoring that everything is inherently a compromise, in particular in a 2-party system. Hence any voter who is not as easily blinded - and it’s not like Harris wasn’t very open during speeches about how much the right deals in fearmongering and disinformation, going as far as openly mocking people for made-up bullshit stats they’re yelling - would be able to inform themselves and realize that:
So, even if we were to just focus on this particular issue, the voters very much vote pro-genocide when they vote for Trump. I love how he’s technically correct though when he says he wants to end the war in Gaza, people are just too stupid to realize how he means it.
But more importantly, and the central point I’m making, you’re under the belief that reaction to a single issue should matter. Any voter who lets this argument slide has inherently lost themselves to the populist and fascist movements as they excel at exploiting this, and in fact stoke this belief whenever they can. Politics on a large scale cannot be judged based on single issues. Because if you try to, you exactly fall into this trap. You automatically end up being barraged by appeals to emotion, constantly, and you’ll let those decide things for you.
Hence, blaming the voters. For not actually engaging with the democratic process, just with hate- and fearmongering and then wondering why that that ended up controlling them when they sought it out themselves.
The belief that everyone decrying Harris’ stance on Gaza was knowingly or unknowingly participating in enabling a worse stance on Gaza than the still-not-great one we would have gotten with her.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
By not putting the focus on the absolutely 100% guaranteed WORSE stance of the two, people enabled talking points that led, in part, to where we are now.
THAT is why so many of us screaming about harm reduction and the lesser of two evils is SO pissed off about single-issue Gaza voters not putting in for Harris.
Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good. It leads to this.
Elections are about holding your nose and making the best of a bunch of imperfect choices.
Trying to make it anything else from the top down is folly. You have to start from the bottom up. Until that happens, we will never see our way out of a two party system.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
A weapon doesn’t kill or hurt less people just because the dealer who sold/gave it away said, “Genocide is bad, okay?”
Those bombs are gonna kill and hurt people no matter if it’s the Dems or the Reps sending them to Israel. There are lots of reasons why Trump is worse, but if you’re a Palestinian it really doesn’t make a difference if the weapon that kills you came from a racist man or a woman who condemns genocide.
Edit:
So many downvotes, so many disagreeing comments, but not a single fucking person has managed to give one concrete example that explains why weapons coming from Trump is so much worse than weapons coming from Kamala, for Palestinians.
Edit 2:
Here’s an article detailing the destruction in Gaza in December 2023, 11 months ago. I feel like some of you need reminding of the current reality, when you can’t even come up with concrete hypotheticals.
He literally said they should “finish the job” but we all know you’re lying and know he said that. I’m thankful for the user tagging feature in boost. I never have to give you benefit of doubt again, wasting my time reading the words of a liar.
I said to give me something concrete, you have given me nothing concrete. Israel is not that far from “finishing the job” by themselves.
But what else is to be expected, all you people can say is “you’re a liar/troll”. Keep burying your head in the sand then.
I wonder why people are calling you a liar and a troll. Yeah they’re all wrong. /s
My friend, he wasn’t become president yet. Come back in 6 months when Gaza is nothing but a steaming pile of debris and revisit this conversation.
I have news for you.
That was 11 months ago.
Here we go again with the “it can’t get worse” bullshit. Netanyahu will eliminate the Palestinian people completely.
Because there’s no effing way Netanyahu would have posted anything like this in response to a Kamala win.
ThAts NoT cOncReTe
This asshole is nothing but a fucking piece of shit sealion
I asked for something concrete that Trump would do that is worse for Palestine. You still haven’t explained how a bomb from the Republicans hurts more than a bomb from the Democrats.
Again, there’s lots of reasons Trump is worse than Kamala, but weapons will kill people no matter who uses them.
Are you seriously unable to imagine anything worse than whats happening there right now? Read a fucking history book.
I can’t even believe an adult person is trying to make this argument. Please tell me that you’re a child.
You’re still blind you’ve learned nothing. Enjoy your fascism. Its not your fault people didnt vote for harris. Its their fault for not understanding how the system works. 😂 You’re hopeless. Harris lost not because of the genocide, its just an example, she lost because she didn’t give voters a reason to show up for her.
Arabs? Israel has a right to murder your family. Young people? Sit down im speaking. Labors? Heres 50k for you to start a business. Wat? I need to afford eggs. Abortion? Oh wait thats protected already is most of the states in play.
It’s like you literally cannot read. Just leave.
Because like it or not stopping aid for Israel would have pushed all Israel supporters to Trump. Sadly apparently most Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
I don’t think this is a constructive way of looking at the situation. After all, being quiet about Netanyahu’s abuses wasn’t a winning strategy either. Besides, being scared of Israeli lobbying automatically makes you a bad leader.
Regular people don’t live reading obscure threads on Lemmy so I’m 100% sure that the effects of the comments posted by tankies here are negligible.
My point is that you can’t lose against the worst human being twice and keep blaming the electorate. If they want to lead, the dems have to stand for something instead of complaining about turnout or in general blaming anyone else but themselves. It was THEIR job to get out the vote.
Trump is a monumental POS but the dems prefer to cater to the people who voted for him instead of the people who want legitimate pro-working-class policies.
If the electorate votes for the worst human being twice they definitely deserve a freaking hulking heap of blame.
You can blame dems for a lot but to decide not to vote for them because of Gaza is the dumbest possible take
Who is likely to lose? Oh right harris.
Yo! Wisconsin whats up today? How your friends and family in the middle east doing?
Hey Harris have any of that worker love? Protection of american jobs? No? 🥴.
Yo Pennsylvania whats up?
But yes its the voters who are wrong… Who was it that said ‘only winning matters’? Oh right pelosi… Smart. Evil. Lady.
Yes, Democracy lost. Whats your point?
That you’ve still learned nothing from this experience. The thing we were telling you for the last month.
Harris’ needed to give people a reason to vote for her. In Wisconsin that was stopping the genocide. In Pennsylvania thats fucking reducing the cost of living, inproving wages, etc.
If we’re lucky enough to get out of this with our country in tact next time stfu up about lesser evil and demand your candidate have policies that benefit people.
In short dont be like ‘sit down im speaking’ harris, the lesser evil. And instead be more like ‘yes sir stand up trll me what you need!’
You didnt tell me anything. I criticized Harris from the day she was made candidate. I am luckily not american and dont live there though
Yes, the voters are wrong? You think you’re making some amazing point, but really you just look stupid.
Oh prole, divest yourself from politics its not healthy for you. You lack the ability to reason cause and effect. Someone in this thread has the correct take on the democratic party and their loss and its not you. Find the post about the democrats not being self reflective and how gaza is just a proxy for the root problem with democrats. They’re obsession with data, and focus groups. Its not the voters who are wrong when you dont inspire them to show up.
Don’t talk to me like you know me.
Why? Does she automatically get all the votes just because she exists? You get votes by doing what your electorate wants you to do. She didn’t do that and this is the result.
Because she is no fascist. If you have the choice between a fascist and a non fascist and you dont vote you support the fascist. In this case it is even dumber because one side tells Israel to calm it down but sadly still send weapons while the other says Israel is correct, did everything to worsen the relationships between israel and palestine even more and has a fucking settlement named after them.
And this reasoning is why harris lost.
She lost because americans apparently love fascism. Or at least dont care about democracy. The people who didnt vote are on the same level as MAGA. Edit: I forgot. Same for the people who voted for a third party candidate
Because I never saw Trump getting the exact same criticism. Not even when he told Netanyahu, “finish the job.”
Somehow Harris was always worse on Gaza to certain people.
The difference between them is you are never getting the votes that don’t give a shit about Palestine back from Trump. His voters don’t care. Democratic voters do. When both candidates have the exact same position (and “genocide harder or lighter” isn’t a difference in position, it’s still genocide) then the issue only causes people to not vote, or look at other policies. And then you add in alienating more democrats by going further right and copying their policies. The people who like them will still vote for the republican. The people liking democratic policies will cringe and step aside.
Yes. I understand people have stupid, short-sighted reasons to invite in fascism.
So fucking predictable.
Remember when Biden stepped down? Do you remember how unpopular he was and the massive wave of hope and support for Kamala that showed itself? Well, what the fuck did you think was gonna happen when Kamala glued herself to Biden, and tried to appeal to center right voters? They refuse to make compromises with the left, try to appeal to the center-right, and then blame the left for not voting for them; classic center/lib playbook, the same thing happens in Portugal, same thing happened in 2016 USA elections.
I thought that Democrats would win DESPITE the absolute dog shit campaign, given everything about Trump, but it was still an absolute dog shit campaign by people who claimed this was the most important election of people’s lives, but then dug their hills in ideologically and refused to compromise with people on their left.
If the situation wasn’t so dire, it would be hilarious to see the double think by Dem voters in this thread:
“How can Rep voters not hold Trump accountable despite everything he’s done!”
“It’s not the Dems fault that they lost, despite trying to appeal to the center-right instead of the left; it’s never their fault! It’s the leftists fault for not voting Dem! Kamala did nothing wrong!”
Ask yourself what do you think is going to happen next election? Answer: The Dems are going to go hard center. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Everything you said has nothing to do with the left, they are basic as shit things that event center and center-right European parties would do. I mean, what does the sentence “did green energy” even mean to you? The US is one of the largest polluters per capita in the world, installing a few solar panels means jack shit. Starting to heavily invest in public transportation, putting forth serious proposals to reduce the use of plastic, etc. would just be a start.
Meanwhile, they were also running on an anti-migration platform, just not as bad as Trump - remember how Democrats were so proud of the fact Trump shot down a Dem proposal that would reduce immigration?
Also, remember when Obama was elected on an anti-war policy in 2008? He even won a Nobel Peace Prize! And remember how Trump was elected in 2016 on a “pull back troops from the Middle East policy”, standing opposite to “Hillary the Hawk”?
Meanwhile, while most of the world condemns Israels actions, and millions of people in the US protest the US involvement in the ongoing genocide, both candidates are in favor of supporting and giving weapons to Israel.
If your argument is “but Biden was so far left”, then you’re a perfect representation of what is wrong with the Dem party and the US in general.
Edit: I almost forgot this beautiful (\s) fucking cherry on top: Dick fucking Cheney endorsed the Dems. And you seriously wanna make the argument they couldn’t have gone more left?
You think that green energy isn’t left? Debt relief isn’t left? What planet are you on? Do I have to say left [of center]? Jeez.
Yes it’s a start. What do you expect? The entire power grid and entire vehicle fleet to be redone in 2 years? Things take time. And what happens now that the start is undone and we have to start from scratch in, hopefully, another 4 years. This conversation is shaping up to the old classic of you saying “but they didn’t do everything, everywhere, all at once”.
Jeez this is some select history. Obama won on “hope”. Trump won because he appealed to the middle class and Hillary did not.
This election shows that Gaza didn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. They didn’t even register, no one cared. Even your own human rights didn’t matter. It came down to inflation, housing, and further on the right xenophobia. Clinton was right “It’s the economy, stupid”.
Ah strawman. Well that bad faith means that this will be my last reply. No point in discussing when you make shit up.
I did not say “so far left”. Do a ctrl+f and you won’t find those words. I said: “If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc”. If the left can’t show up to support things like that, you’re not going to get anything further left. Not gonna happen. Not how it works. You walk before you run, you test the waters before you take the plunge, and now that we saw it doesn’t get you votes (midterms or next election), guess what fucking direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr maybe it was because even Dick fucking Cheney saw that Trump is a fascist. It wasn’t based on policy, it was Trump’s fascism. I’m having a hard time deciding if you’re just horribly off base or bad faith. Either way, ciao.
No, it’s not left. I’ve already explained to you why. If I then drive a monster truck everywhere and eat steak for every meal, but then I install a solar panel in my house, does that make me an environmentalist?
Jesus, I really do honestly try not to be rude, but the amount of stupidity in one paragraph mixed with the arrogance is off the damn charts. Firstly, Hillary, the person you’re quoting, lost the fucking election; secondly, neither candidate in this election was against selling weapons to Israel, both of them together had less than 50% of American citizens voting for them, and one of them - the one that has the largest overlap with pro-Palestine voters - lost the popular vote to the Republicans, which hadn’t happened to Democrats since 2004, and your conclusion is “Gaza didn’t matter and here’s another Dem loser’s take on it!”. Careful that you don’t get hemorrhoids with how hard you’re shitting these takes out.
Yeah, which implies those are very leftist measures and policies. Would you say “if the leftists don’t show up to support racial segregation (…)” - no you fucking wouldn’t, cuz it’s obviously not a fucking leftist measure, is it? And neither are those, they are measures even most centrists agree with.
They’ll sprint to the center because that’s historically what they always do, in this and other elections, and in other countries as well - refuse to compromise with the left, appeal to center and center right, and then blame the left when they lose. This isn’t news for me and plenty of other people budy, we predicted this might happen and what the reaction would be - the only thing I didn’t predict is that so many people would still support Trump - but plenty of people literally saw the writing on the wall about the support for Kamala and called attention to it, but the democrats don’t want to accept reality, just as they didn’t accept it in 2016.
I know I said I’m out but this is too good. It was BILL Clinton that said that. The irony LMAO. Ok peace.
Fair enough, nice gotcha, it still doesn’t change anything that I said.
Also, I forgot to add it to the other comment, and then I was just going to leave it out, but now I’m here again, so:
Fuck your “things take time”, especially in a country that is both one of the richest and most polluting countries per capita in the world. A bunch of the world is becoming uninhabitable, storms become more frequent, some places are having a harder and harder time growing food, panama had to relocate people who lived on an island due to rising sea levels, and things are going to get exponentially worse, but “things take time guys, we can’t rush it!”
Let me ask you this: are you vegan, avoid using plastic as much as possible, use public transport/walk/bike whenever possible, try to minimize your consumption as much as possible, try to buy locally, and overall do you just try to ethically consume? Or are you one of those “it’s the government and corporations who have to do something”? Because you certainly can’t be the second and then, when talking about one of the richest and most polluting countries in the world, say we need to take things slow.
The point is not a “gotcha”. You are everything you project. I can’t life coach you anymore.
How about the left instead make compromises with reality instead?
Fuck that noise, drama baby leftists who can’t think past tomorrow cost us this election.
The thing is, I strongly agree with you AND the person you replied to because although I’ve been agape at watching Kamala sprint away from the left from essentially the moment her candidacy was announced, and I think Democrat leadership is FAR too in the pocket of corporate interests, and far too welcoming of Republicans, she’s still so very obviously a better choice than Trump that I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I’d have thought that women alone would have pushed Kamala over the top due to the whole Roe v. Wade thing.
In summary - all my grumpiness at the DNC and Kamala for ignoring the left again was still miles short of what would have propelled me to vote for Trump or enable a Trump win.
Same, the difference is i knew that distinction wouldnt bring people out. If you, I’m assuming, a committed voter were reluctant about voting for harris despite everything. What does that mean for people who are fairly indifferent to voting? 😞😭😞😭😞😭
Oh I wasn’t reluctant, there was never any doubt. I just wasn’t happy. But the thing is - the things I was unhappy about don’t matter to the folks who don’t really follow politics. Whatever their reasons were, they weren’t my reasons.
Yeah, as I said, even I though Kamala would win despite everything because Trump is… well, Trump, and I honestly did not think anywhere near this many people would vote for him again. If yesterday someone had told me he was going to win the popular vote, I would not have come anywhere close to believing them. It’s extremely depressing to see how many people still choose to vote for Trump and back him after everything he has done and said he was gonna do.
I find it very odd you thought that. The people who voted for him are primarily the people who voted for him in 2020. no? similar level of votes. the indifferent souls didn’t turn out this time because democrats did democrat things.
This shit exactly. They literally gave us nothing to vote for. All they really had was abortion, but that’s fuckin it? No other decent policy. And now I wonder if they see this outcome do they think they weren’t right wing enough? Stupid.
Harris and Biden put billions of dollars into a renewable energy fund, and Harris was promising a 20 grand subsidy for first home buyers. It’s not nothing. Y’all just chose not to listen.
They think being “right” is more important than the horrifying shit that is to come. It really seems like these so-called “progressives” do not grasp what actual fascism and autocracy looks like. They think this is a good thing because it’ll make the Democratic party rethink their priorities or something, when in reality, we will be lucky if there is a Democratic party or even a real election in 2 or 4 years.
This shit is over, there will be no progressive party now.
You’re trapped in a burning building.
A firefighter hacks the door down and reaches their hand out to pull you free and carry you outside.
And you ask “What’s in it for me?”
I truly don’t think you people grasp how meaningless all this text your wasting is.
This happened because people are stupid. That’s it. That’s the long and short of it. They have no, absolutely no concept whatsoever of how bad things are about to get. There’s no world where the citizenship understands what fascism is where Kamala needed to do anything different than she did.
At this point, I truly don’t think it matters. None of this shit matters. The problem is the people.
You’ll probably be permabanned from the instance for saying this but obvious pro trump trolls will get a comment deleted once a day so it all balances out /s
Their instance is feddit.nl, I think they’re gucci.