I still continue to fail to understand the logic these people are trying to use.
I completely understand the dissatisfaction with the Biden administration and his support for an ally who is currently committing genocide on the daily. And if there were a candidate who wasn’t a completely batshit wannabe dictator, I’d at least understand why they’d vote for anyone else over Biden, if not agree with it.
But this is not the case. What these people fail to understand because they’re literally blinded with rage is that the only other option is exponentially worse. Trump isn’t going to stop Israel from bombing Gaza into oblivion. He’s said as much. He basically wants to glass the entire area. Do these people not realize that what Trump wants to do is exponentially worse?
Voting for Trump because you don’t like Biden’s policies on Israel and Gaza isn’t shooting yourself in the foot. It’s shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading the shotgun when you realize you missed a few toes, then wondering why the hell your foot hurts and you’re bleeding all over the place.
I understand the rationale of “I cannot in good conscience vote for a man who has supported and partially funded a brutal genocide.” But at the same time, you’re advocating for a man who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”. Why?
If you think Trump is, in any situation, a viable option for anything, please seek professional help immediately. There is never a situation where Donald Trump’s decisions or actions are ever going to make your life better. Full stop.
There are a few factors:
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Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
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A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
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The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
So if they either don’t care about Palestine or want to escalate the genocide, then why the hell do they care about Biden’s handling of the situation in the first place?
At best, they should be indifferent, no?
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
This is a classic example of voting against their own interests.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
This is very true. If you can say one thing about the GOP, they’re specialists at getting the message out and convincing people to vote against their own interests.
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You’re failing to understand because people are near-braindead levels of stupid. Democracy only works when the populous is generally well educated. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot in regards to education for a long time in this country that most people come out with the intelligence of a 5th grader, then say stupid things like “Trump is better than Biden”.
You’re playing politics. They’re responding to something they view as betrayal.
And what do they think is going to happen with Trump? A man who has already gone on record saying he’d do that and more?
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I understand and even support their point of view regarding Biden. But their only alternative is exponentially worse, and voting for Trump because you’re pissed off at Biden is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
I legitimately don’t know how to handle these sorts of situations. I’ve learned that my methods don’t work on people with strong emotions on a subject without a 1 on 1 and some intoxicants.
I don’t believe this myself, but there is a not entirely ridiculous argument that when Democrats are doing the militarism against Arabs there’s no resistance at all, while when Republicans do it the Democrats (and aligned media) at least try to work against them. I don’t think that’s how it actually works out (I think the Democrats don’t really try and thus are completely ineffective), but I can see why a rational person could come to that belief.
Like take the protests right now vs. BLM. BLM wasn’t exactly a great performance by the Democrats, but there was at least some token support for the validity of their cause, but since Biden’s in power and the protests are in some part a criticism of him, everyone’s working overtime to discredit them and pretend like the only thing worth talking about it some smattering of antisemitism. There may be platitudes about having the “right to protest” while studiously avoiding referencing the reason they’re doing it, but most of the messaging is about outsider agitators, antisemitism, and violence (leaving aside that it’s mostly been committed against them).
The logic is simple. State matter of factly Bined must abandon Israel or lose to trump. Once declared, it’s Bidens fault if Trump is elected.
So who’s fault is it when Trump is elected and gives Israel everything they need to make the current genocide look like a schoolyard spat by comparison?
Your logic is a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Biden’s. Folks have made it clear, delete Israel or we get Trump. They are litterally willing to blow themselves up, what makes you think they won’t elect Trump first.
Your rationale still makes zero sense.
You’re upset with Biden for not doing more to stop the genocide in Israel, so in response you’re going to elect someone who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”?
It would be one thing if the Republican candidate were someone who was pro-Palestine. But this? This is like standing in front of the firing squad, and your last words being an objection not because you’re innocent, but because those carrying out your execution don’t have big enough guns.
No, it’s more like declaring that if they’re going to shoot me, I’ll convince them to shoot you next. You’re suddenly a lot more motivated to stop them shooting me aren’t you?
It’s the good ol, stop Israel now or we’re going to burn thos place down. And Biden should fucking listen to that.
Yet you understand the logic by Biden to not do the most obvious thing and stop supporting a genocide? Where is his urgency about US democracy? He has the power. Right now.
These people have a real reason to be angry and hold the Biden admin accountable, Biden does not have a justification for pushing ahead on his support of Israel. None.
Hey, nobody is arguing that Biden isn’t being a fucking idiot about Isreal… but in every way that Biden is bad Trump is worse.
these dumbfucks are going to put trump in power to ‘save palestine’ and ha-ha, project 2025 is going to end US democracy.
that’ll show 'em. fuck
So much this. It’s so stupid. But I guess they get the chance to be smug for a few months before donnie takes power and ends any discussions.
Or Biden could just change his course. He’s got plenty of time before the election.
Attempting to “hold Biden accountable” by supporting, advocating for, and voting for someone who has already gone on record as saying he wants to do even worse is probably not going to work out the way you think it will.
I understand the position that people are in. It’s pretty much Sophie’s Choice. Vote for Biden, who’s supporting an ally that is currently committing genocide, or vote for Trump, who says he’ll genocide harder. Or stay home and vote for nobody, and end up with Trump anyway. There’s no good options here. I get that.
Nobody wants to vote for a man who says “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife”. But at the same time, the counter to that isn’t to advocate for the opponent who’s saying “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife, your kids, and I’ll piss on your dog while I’m doing it.” I’m not saying I know what the best option is, but I know that Trump of all people certainly isn’t it and will just make the problem much worse.
Two questions:
Which party do you think has the capacity to change for the better?
What do you think would actually motivate that party to not persist in a genocidal direction?
Neither party is going to change in any real way, my only hope is that the GOP will rip itself apart and finally die the death it’s been fighting tooth and nail to delay, and then an actual left leaning party can arise in the FTTP system and the DNC can slide into the place of the more conservative of the two. At which point we can hopefully get ranked choice or star voting. A hilarious pipe dream I’m sure, and one that will take too long a time for anyone’s satisfaction. But it would take far less time for good things to happen that way that to fight out of a dictatorship, or rebuild after the country descends into civil war.
There won’t be time for the DNC to learn the lesson you want to teach them and then apply corrections, a second Trump term is a watershed moment for the future of the country, the world, and democracy. We won’t get a chance to try again in 4 years
with dems we actually get a future to vote and participate. with the GOP you’ll get project 2025, handmaiden’s tale and dystopia.
tough fucking choice
100% I agree, I was just trying to spell out how we might still have some solid progress through them, I’m not one of the folks hesitant to vote for Biden. I don’t like him, the DNC, or that I have to do it but i understand the calculus, there’s no other option if you want to avoid catastrophe
Understood. And fundamentally I agree, it would be great if the DNC could live up to the role of opposing conservatives but we’ve got what we’ve got and trust me, we can make this worse…
He doesn’t actually have that power directly, no.
Congress holds the power of the purse. If congress appropriates the money, the president is legally obligated to spend that money for the reason that it was appropriated. (It’s called impoundment of appropriated funds.) This is why Trump was impeached the first time; he tried to withhold funding from Ukraine–before Russia invaded–that had already been appropriated by congress unless he got personal quid pro quo from Zelensky. Trump did not have the legal authority to withhold that funding, and hence was impeached for corruption.
Similarly, Biden can’t withhold money appropriated for Israel. He can, at best, veto the appropriations bill, which would send it back to Congress to be overridden. (Given that it passed 79-21 in the Senate–I can find the House vote tallies at the moment–it is highly likely that his veto would be overridden.) Should he do it anyways? Sure. But it would be purely symbolic.
The only options Biden has are diplomatic, which he is exercising. He could arguably use the military to invade, but congress would pull him up short on that very fast. Could he do more diplomatically? Yes, definitely. Can he unilaterally stop Israel? Categorically no.
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Republicans are masterminds at not just getting people to vote against their own interest
Only because corporate news refuses to check them. Because corporate news sewers are run by republiQans.
Democrat elections are basically a hostage situation (it votes for biden when it’s told or else it gets the trump again). If biden refuses to budge on the critical issues, at some point you have to start executing hostages.
yeah but funny thing is IT’S NOT DEMS HOLDING THE COUNTRY HOSTAGE, it’s dems offering the country a way out from madness. the “it gets trump again” - he’s the GOP candidate for fuck’s sake.
you act like the dems get to elect both candidates just to upset you.
No it is the Dems holding the country hostage. They pretend to care but they’re using the lack of a real alternative to hold themselves to extremely low standards AND RESIST ANY CALLS FROM THEIR OWN VOTER BASE TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR- “I mean, have you seen the other guys?” should not be a valid operating principle!
the dems didn’t make the GOP fucking nuts. but it’s the dems fault huh?
listen to yourself, shit man, do it, vote trump, you deserve each other
You’re not getting it. The point is that the Dems keep betraying their own base and refusing to change for the better- they’re unresponsive to feedback. This doesn’t mean trump deserves to win, it just means the Biden needs to go. “I’m only 99% fascist” is not something I will condone ever, and I don’t think you should either. Show some spine! Support the students protesting against the “democratic” Biden regime and the genocide it’s providing diplomatic and military aid for. There has to be a red line somewhere and in my opinion we’ve passed it.
The point is that the Dems keep betraying their own base and refusing to change for the better- they’re unresponsive to feedback.
school loan forgiveness
green new deal
rescheduling mj
aid for ukraine
I dunno man, failing to see the betrayal.
This doesn’t mean trump deserves to win, it just means the Biden needs to go.
lol, guess what: there are two people running bright lights. you’re supporting trump.
You don’t see how supporting a genocide is a red line if you had family or friends there? You lack any sort of empathy then.
I dunno man, failing to see the betrayal
idk what to tell you either, he could be the second coming and it still wouldn’t give him a pass to unconditionally support a country while it’s carrying out a genocide. That’s not how it works
green new deal
I think you mean the Green New Dream, or Whatever. You’re trying to credit them with a policy that was very much not enacted and what was done was done to discredit it.
Wait, Republican behaviors are the fault of…the Democrats?
They’re not talking about Republican behaviors at all, they’re talking about Democratic behaviors, like what’s happening right now by Democrats with respect to Palestine. “But Republicans are worse” doesn’t change that Democrats are adopting policy counter to what their base wants. They think the left/Muslims/young people have no other option, so they don’t need to do anything to please them.
“If it came down to Trump and Joe Biden, I will vote for Trump. Because it doesn’t get worse than Joe Biden,”
Well, if Trump does get reelected, I hope for this guy’s sake that he’s right. I have my doubts, though.
That is the statement of either a complete fucking idiot or a troll.
Any measurement of the two shows who’s better, and it’s not like breaking news or anything. Was this shithead alive in 2017-2021??
Right. This guy that called for a Muslim ban will be so much more sympathetic to the genocide in Gaza…
Well…Trump will indeed end the war quickly. Likely by turning Gaza into scorched earth.
And Trump with his SCotUS cronies have plans to end / strip birthright citizenship & deport 11M “undesirables”.
Want to guess who will be at the very head of that line? You don’t think Stephen Miller is getting lists of arrestees from the colleges right fucking now?
And I very seriously doubt I’ll have the capacity to feel bad for the dangerously stupid by that point.
This is just a terribly written headline. The problem is, if you changed the headline, there wouldn’t even be a story.
There’s a fairly large group of Arabs in that area, and some of them might vote for Trump. This is not surprising. If you live in the area, it might even be worth reading more about why they would support Trump. One could try to discuss their positions and see if they really think that Trump would do better or worse than Biden.
It is often mentioned but needs to be repeated here, because the same mistake was made yet again… Any time you try to blame one small group for the outcome of an election, you’re just wrong. Everyone who votes, or doesn’t vote, everyone who campaigns, who supports people campaigning, everyone who creates or runs the systems that assemble and count votes, they all play a role in determining the outcome.
No you’re wrong, a few thousand edgy lunatics totally decided the 2016 general election, the one where Trump literally lost the popular vote while corporate Dems ignored historic battlegrounds and popular policies, instead assuming it was their turn to win.
Liberals seriously can’t see how much they are embarrassing themselves and revealing their true nature.
Always talking about nice sound bites, kindness, and world peace while stabbing you in the back as soon as it’s time to make laws and just sitting back while police kill you.
Completely chilling while Zionists kick you out of university for peaceful protest, making kids homeless thousands of miles from home with no money and ruining their education. Think of the economy!
The same people that feel so bad for the homeless but have no problem with NIMBYism and never actually help or vote for helpers.
The slow realization that liberals will welcome fascism if it means they can step over your dead body to get Starbucks tomorrow is absolutely fucking chilling.
Always talking about nice sound bites, kindness, and world peace while stabbing you in the back as soon as it’s time to make laws and just sitting back while police kill you.
The kicker on their hippy-punching cheerleading is that there’s perfect examples of kumbaya liberalism in the universities that negotiated. They didn’t even necessarily commit to divestment, just all came together and talked with empathy to resolve an issue with people that even in the liberal manufactured consent framing are at worst being misled. But liberalism isn’t actually their driving ethos, it’s maintaining power for themselves and for existing structures, and for that, hippy punching is exactly the result they want. The protesters’ greatest sin isn’t some trumped up charge of antisemitism, it’s challenging their superiors.
I mean my coworkers families are in danger today, why would you expect them to give a shit about an election six months away when they might get the call to find out they don’t have relatives tomorrow.
Because they’ll still exist tomorrow, and the not-having-relatives-danger only increases by supporting the republiQan?
Is this really that difficult to understand? Using this watershed election as an entry-point to understanding how national politics and foreign relations work (or don’t work) is not only irresponsible, it’s tragic timing. Perfect timing for russia tho. Coincidentally.
Please explain how electing a Republican in 6 months could possibly lower their families chances tomorrow. People not pressuring Biden are telling them don’t worry six months from now you can keep things exactly as bad for your family as they are now, but if you don’t we promise it will get even worse.
0 opportunity to improve things and a fat chance to make them worse, gee I wonder why they’re not sold. Dead is dead, and we are asking them to give us six months of waiting on the off chance that things would be worse the other way.
I’m going to keep it 💯 with you. Those people are in danger no matter who is in office because Israel is hellbent on commiting genocide, and the United States is strategically aligned with Israel. That isn’t going to change in the immediate term no matter what delusions you or anyone else might have.
What will get A LOT fucking worse is the future for everyone in the United States that is not part of the oligarchy if Donald Trump gets back in office. There won’t be any chance to make reforms, or change US foreign policy. Anybody that isn’t white, upper class, or a collaborator is going to become a second class citizen.
So it is time to decide whether you are going to support the party that is going to preserve democracy, or if you are going to doom this country because you want everyone to identify with the suffering of those in Gaza. Either way, Gaza will be in the same position that it is in right now. All we are discussing is whether we are going to doom millions more people along with them.
Or Biden could change course? He’s got time and the ramping up of pressure against him will hopefully reach a fever pitch that he’ll have no choice but to do so. If not, then he really likes Israel more than he likes democracy, and it’s as much his fault as it is the people who refuse to vote for the guy who’s killing their family members.
It’s really weird how people have seen the ramping up in pressure cause him to change course and then just decide that’s the limit, and further pressure will be ineffective.
Please explain how electing a Republican in 6 months could possibly lower their families chances tomorrow.
Certainly. The republiQan party’s ties to the Netanyahu right-wing government are much stronger and more aligned. They also wish to wipe out the population of Palestine and take their land. The Democratic party does not align with those goals.
That’s how they could lower their familie’s chances. Does that make sense?
No, because you are still failing to address the time aspect. Tomorrow, as in 6 months before the elections.
It doesn’t. This is our american bed. Lay in it. This is what happens when lobbyists and affluent people are allowed to place hundreds of millions of free speech into the pockets of politicians. This is what happens when religion and government mix, even slightly. The only chance those people have of America ending support tomorrow is a violent uprising that would most likely make everything worse for every American. Pick your poison, they all cause death.
Wow, what agreat sales pitch to encourage people to vote for the guy who’s killing their family members…
Go ahead and bury your head in the sand then. You know what? Just go vote for Trump. You’ll love it.
Yeah there aren’t any US Presidential elections before November, that I’m aware of anyway.
I mean after six months is a kind of tomorrow, it’s just not literally tomorrow. Using the election to press a point is not really relevant if we’re not talking about the election though. We’d otherwise just agree.
They want him to change NOW. Not six months from now after he’s elected. NOW. The electoral threat is meant to cause current changes.
Threatening to vote against a politician is really the only leverage voters have, and it’s not like they just wait until the week of an election to demand things. “If you don’t do this, I won’t vote for you” is a standard template for demanding action.
well, howabout this: we’ll join in all the foot-stomping and loud sighing up until the election. If we can get some concessions through it - great! All for it.
But we vote Biden in November. Because if you want to drive the election like an asshole and steer it into the ditch so trump gets in - Yeah, no. Not just no, but HELL no.
How is this even a question? Do you even know what you’re talking about? Have you ever even voted before? Honestly the cavalier attitude to trump getting in is batshit insanity. I hope y’all are just stoned as fuck.
Man, dumb shit like this makes me want to let the leopards they want to vote for eat their faces.
I’m white, male, solidly middle-aged. I can look like a neo-con magat if I need to. Shit, as long as the only thing I’m talking about is guns, most people will probably think I am a neo-con. Most people aren’t going to recognize my tattoos, so they’ll be able to believe that I’m some kind of christian fucko, esp. since I know the bible far better than most evangelicals.
I survived Trump’s first term without too many direct negative effects. I’m old enough that I’m not the one that’s going to be well and truly fucked when climate change slams into the US like a derailed freight train. I haven’t had to worry about accidentally getting someone pregnant in 30 years, so rights to choose and access to birth control have zero direct affect on me. I can let dumb fucks burn their own house down around them, and it’s not going to directly harm me.
…But goddamn, I still want to save those idiots from themselves, because I don’t want to live in the country that Trump and Republicans want this to be.
Should have very strictly regulated the forever chemicals and micro plastics multiple decades ago. People are so inexplicably stupid and deranged that it has to be the chemicals.
Burn it down Pookie, burn the motherfucker down.
Are Establishment Democrats Really Prepared to Hand the Presidency Back to Donald Trump Rather Than Listen to Their Constituents? In a Word: Yes.
Garbage “walk away” bullshit 2.0 remains bullshit. F’off.
Don’t fall for the liars blaming arab-americans disgusted at our government’s active role in the ongoing palestinian genocide.
Blame democrats who are providing military and political support to an ongoing genocide and expecting that somehow won’t hurt them in the election.
I get the feeling, but Project 2025 doesn’t cut out any caveats for average Americans who voted for Trump. You will be white and christian or you will face the wall. I just want you to remember that at least you didn’t vote democrat when we’re being shelled by Amazon for revolting inside Amazon City C417-982.
I just want you to remember that at least you didn’t vote democrat when we’re being shelled by Amazon for revolting inside Amazon City C417-982.
Firstly, I plan on voting for a democrat. Secondly, I live in oregon so it doesn’t matter. Thirdly, if you’re relying on democrats to save you from excesses of corporate power I don’t think you understand the democrats very well.
I’m just saying what my comment said: there’s no justification in blaming arab-americans for the obviously flawed decision making of the democratic party.
Thinking that living in Oregon will save you from Trump is… Well, it’s something, anyways. Don’t forget how many nazis you have living in the state the second your outside of Portland city limits.
Thinking that living in Oregon will save you from Trump
You misunderstood. Oregon is solid blue and will go for biden with or without my vote.
No, I get it. I lived in Chicago in 2016, and I voted for Jill Stein because I knew that there was no way in hell that Trump was going to win Illinois.
But see, living in a safely blue state, and then turning around and using a megaphone to tell people in purple states that the blue candidate is awful, he’s Genocide Joe, Sleepy Joe, too old, etc., well, how many people do you think you’ve going to convince in battleground states?
I think what people are blaming is the flawed decision making in electing Trump. It’s like not being able to get what I want so I just burn the whole place down and piss on the ashes.
Yep, that’s what I think is kind of disgusting logic, tbh.
It’s a fact of being human that its hard to throw your support behind a group that are massacering people you consider kin.
The democrats made a choice to support an ongoing genocide and drive down turn out among their own base, despite the importance of this election to the future of our democracy. They and not voters deserve 100% of the blame for their own actions.
Trump literally told Netty boi to finish it up quick. Don’t really know what the angle is here besides one is in power. The other will do the same he said so. Its a situation where you just lose thinking like that. This us a call that our voting system needs to change. Let’s not torch it before we can fix it.
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Who are ‘the Arabs’? Would that be the same ones that billions of dollars of investment in buying Trump? Does it really seem odd that they’d want their asset back in the White House?
This isn’t a failing of Biden. This is unchecked corruption.
The “Arabs” are American voters. Dearborn, MI is the largest population of Muslim people outside of a Muslim-majority nation.
(It’s in the article you didn’t read)
Ah, so it’s just a troll headline because what they meant to say is that there are Americans in Michigan who will vote for Trump. No shit?
And the answer is yes,” Amer Zahr, a Palestinian American comedian and Dearborn local, told me
Now, here we go… they’re actually talking about Palestinians specifically.
What a political sham of an article…
