We are experiencing late-stage capitalism because neo-liberals refuse to change our institutions. Unless we do something, the US is going to have an oligarchy of billionaires that rally around a christo-fascist dictator.

I am not arguing the current state of our country is a bump in the road. I am arguing for a strategy that amounts to a last ditch effort to avert fascism. The fascist movement will not go away if Biden wins this election. Voting for Biden is only the first step that has to be done if we want to prevent our country from becoming a christo-fascist dictatorship. Neo-liberalism got us into this mess and the longer we stick with neo-liberalism the larger the fascist movement will become.

All we are getting by electing Biden is 2024 is a chance to elect people with better ideas and a willingness to use political power to make systemic changes in 2026 and 2028. We need socialists and progressives in political positions. There is no value in giving up early. We might as well vote because we get the same result if we try and fail as not trying. edit: typo

Are you a bot? Keep saying the same thing without addressing what I’m saying.

Is there anything I could do to convince you otherwise? I have refuted these arguments multiple times. No matter how many times they are repeated they are still just as flawed.

you are claiming that you either vote for Biden or democracy ends

I am claiming that we have a chance to save democracy by voting in Biden in 2024. It is not a guarantee, but it will be possible to elect candidates who are not neo-liberals or fascists in 2026 and 2028. If Trump is elected in 2024 democracy will end. We would not even have this opportunity if we did not live in a democracy.

if there is no real practical choice, there is no real democracy.

Averting fascism and death camps is a real choice. Having the opportunity to build a better society is a real choice. There is still democracy for now.

edit: Also, the option to end democracy is a choice. It’s an option that can happen in a democracy. And there are fascists who want to choose this option. We need to out vote them.

We had primaries this year. As per usual the incumbent president won their primary. Now the American people have two choices for president. With Biden we have a chance at electing progressives and socialists in 2026 and 2028. We will not have that opportunity with Trump.

The rule of law ended today. Democracy will end if the christo-fascists win the election.

By electing Biden democracy continues and we will have the opportunity for better choices. There are ways to fix our problems, but we have to be willing to fight for them. If we choose to keep fighting we can avert self-destruction. In this case it means voting for a neo-liberal. That’s a small price to pay for a shot at a better society and averting death camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_Party_presidential_primaries

Other people ran in the Democratic Party’s primary. As is typical of US politics, the incumbent president won their primary.

Biden and Trump both won their primaries, because people in their respective parties voted for Biden and Trump. Trump had even more challengers than Biden did. This outcome wasn’t predetermined, just predictable.

Hillary Clinton vs Jeb Bush in 2016 was predictable. But as we saw with Trump’s win, not predetermined.

Biden was a write in candidate in New Hampshire and won. Delware was cancelled because only Biden got enough signatures. Florida’s cancellation is still being challenged in court. These exceptions are exceptions, they don’t mean we didn’t have a primary. The incumbent won the primary, like incumbents usually do.

The media isn’t perfect. Fox News is a propaganda machine for the Republican Party. CNN was artificially shifted to the right by a rich donor. But the situation isn’t as bad as your argument claims. We just had most of mainstream media attacking Biden over his debate performance. For profit media follows the profit motive to everyone’s detriment. There isn’t some kind of organized conspiracy to control the news.

We have a democracy. The policy people want and the policy that gets implemented has diverged since Regan. Neo-liberalism is the cause of this. Neo-liberalism suppresses socialist ideas, while allowing fascist ideas to take root. Neo-liberals cling to the status quo and believe that our institutions are fundamentally good. That we just need good people in charge of them. So they resist systemic change and fail to get to the root cause of our problems.

Our intuitions are fundamentally flawed and need to be fixed. We need majority rule in our democracy and wealth redistribution in our economy. We need to abolish the Electoral College, proportion Senate seats by population, have Supreme Court justices run for election to name a few. We need to remove the owner class by taking away their wealth and the source of their wealth. Workers need to own the corporations they work for. Every worker needs to be given an equal percentage of the company in stocks or bonds and be paid out regularly in dividends or interest. Billionaires need to be taxed until they are millionaires.

In addition to being difficult to implement neo-liberals are going to intuitively resit these changes. The fixes all involve systemic change to systems they believe are inherently good. There are people who would rather elect Trump than fix these problems. Not because they are fascists, but because neo-liberalism has led them to believe that a ‘good man’ needs to be allowed to do ‘what needs to be done’. There are of course people who want their prejudices to be validated and overt fascists. But neo-liberalism leaves people susceptible the idea that systems don’t need to be fixed and that only the people need be to changed.

Thanks to neo-liberalism it easier for a fascist to convince people to blame their problems on immigrants and minorities than for a socialist to convince people to solve their problems with systemic change and wealth redistribution. This is not to say that it is impossible to convince people socialism is the answer to their problems. Just that we actively have to educate people about the flaws of neo-liberalism and fascism in addition to convincing them about progressive and socialist ideas.

I will not get behind allowing the Democratic establishment to portray itself as the defender of Democracy.

I am not arguing for this.

Biden is who we need to vote for to keep our democracy.

I am arguing for this.

I am not arguing Biden will save democracy. Biden is a neo-liberal. His political ideology prevents him from saving our democracy. The same goes for the Democratic Party who are predominately neo-liberals. I am arguing that we, as in the American people, need to save our democracy. The first step in the strategy I am arguing for is to elect Joe Biden. Out of the two viable candidates, he is the candidate who is not a fascist. Electing Biden will preserve our democracy, flawed as it is, for four more years.

Then we need to use the 2026 and 2028 elections to elect socialists and progressives. We ideally want a socialist president to win in 2028. We need to co-opt the Democratic party the way the christo-fascists co-opted the Republican Party.

That fight doesn’t stop because of Trump.

The fascists will not be defeated until we defeat their ideas. Once Trump is out of the picture MAGA and the Republican Party will find a new guy. Fascists movements are springing up in Europe. Modi is the head of a hindu-fascist movement in India. Getting Biden elected is not the solution, just a way to delay the fascists in the US long enough to start implementing actual solutions. edit: typos

In a democracy, the person who wins an election gets the position they ran for.

Biden won the Democratic Party’s primary election so he is going to be the Democratic Party’s candidate. That is democracy.

We have a democracy. There is a real Democratic Party primary every four years. Incumbent presidents usually win their primary when they are up for reelection.

The press is independent, but for profit in most cases. There are of course non-profit exceptions. The fact capitalism exists doesn’t mean democracy doesn’t exist. It means the owner class has a profit motive to overthrow our democracy.

Electing Biden preserves our flawed democracy for four more years. This gives us time to build grassroots movements to put people with better ideas into political positions in the next two elections. It delays the christo-fascist movement for four more years, who have to win a presidential election to succeed.

Getting Biden in office is how we save our democracy, but not because of something he will do. In order to save our democracy, we first have to keep it. Then we have to fix it.

The Democratic Party’s primary already happened. As is typical for American politics the incumbent won their party’s primary.

Yes, as I understand it they would have to change the rules to expel him. People seem to be assuming that there is already a mechanism to expel him without doing that.

Not a lot of them vote out the would be dictator so that he incites an insurrection.

There is no mechanism at this stage that can force him to do so that I am aware of. They can of course try to convince him, but no one from Biden’s inner circle, like Jill Biden, or any of the hypothetical candidates people like to float, like Gavin Newsom, has expressed interest in doing that.

It is the sign of democracy for the people. All of the social, economic, and political progress in the US is thanks to movements that translated into legislation, amendments, and court rulings via our democracy. Without a democracy those movements would have hit a wall. Of course we need to continue to improve our democracy. We need unfettered majority rule in this country. It is functionally possible to achieve this, but people have to vote. The movements won’t translate into positive change if people skip voting.

If Biden wins this election in 2024 we will have a Democratic primary without a Democratic incumbent in 2028. The last two times that happened we were given a socialist to vote for in the Democratic primary. In 2028 we need to make sure whoever that is wins the primary. We can do that by spreading socialist and progressive ideas in the fours years between now and the 2028 election.

Yeah, at least Trump didn’t gain any ground. Biden lost the battle, but we’re still fighting the war.

Our democracy is a democracy. That is a fact. The most effective method to improving our democracy is using our democracy. US history has demonstrated this repeatedly. Our democracy is our most effective tool to prevent fascism, so we should fight to keep it as long as possible. The fascist movement will continue to grow until we defeat their ideas and abandon neo-liberalism. This means we need to elect Biden in 2024 and then elect a socialist in 2028. edit: typo

The christo-fascists are not in complete control of all three branches of government yet. That is why this election and voting is so important. Calling it early is both inaccurate and unhelpful.

We live in a first-past-the-post voting system. These choices, Biden and Trump, are in part the result of that system. We need to change to a different system like rank choice voting or approval voting. But despite being flawed, our system is still a democracy.