I will admit that I know nothing about Israel’s current politics other than that Netanyahu is corrupt and if not for this war he’d likely have been impeached and ousted. I appreciate this post and all this information.
The British first started settling Jews in Israel when it was British Palestine.
It was British territory. You have to respect conquest and annexation. If you don’t then I could make a case through roundabout historical arguments that Israel belongs to the Jews anyway because they were there thousands of years ago in 700 BC and Arabs were not! That would make us occupiers of native American land. Where does the madness end? An endless attempt to make things right in history by going back to the first peoples of the land? In that case all of England would need to be repopulated back in Northern Germany. Half of Northern Italy would need to be repatriated in Belarus.
We would somehow need to move all of South America into Spain.
Australia would become deserted and returned only to the aboriginals.
It’s unreasonable to not respect conquest and annexation. Is it moral, no? We don’t have the PHYSICAL capacity for perfect justice when it comes to a question of this large magnitude. I subscribe to realpolitik.
So if we’re trying to maximize justice for those still alive and not judging up ancestral grievances of who conquered who… We need to focus on practical considerations only for the people currently alive not who was living there 100 years ago.
Furthermore I would say that displacing some Palestinians to give refuge to a people that were recently genocided on mass in World War II is a moral goal. Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it a reasonable and mostly good one? Yes.
How should it have been handled?
They should have bought the land from Palestinians. In many cases they did. But that didn’t stop false claims of colonialism.
I’m all in favor of giving Palestinians reparations but after that it needs to be in exchange for releasing all claims to the land. And they need to be resettled with equity and dignity in friendly Arab nations with a compatible culture.
You want to talk justice, it doesn’t become easy, it gets very messy very fast and I’m fine with the taking on that approach. But I have the stomach for it and I’m not sure the vast majority of people do.
There’s yet another solution that could be equitable for all. That of a UN protectorate. As far as I’m aware that’s the only perfect solution. But it’s the least practical and the most unlikely because it makes literally no one happy despite being what’s truly just.
A UN protectorate would make sense anyway because technically the whole world has cultural claim to Jerusalem and the surroundings.
And it could lay the foundation for a sensible and accountable democratic world government.
But conspiracy nuts won’t ever allow that. And there’s other less fantastical reasons for opposition as well that are more grounded in self-interest and selfishness and monetary reasons.
It’s unreasonable to not respect conquest and annexation.
Yeah that was my point, it’s unproductive to dredge up the history, you have to find reasonable solutions to allow people a dignified life now. And the majority of Palestinians are actually on board with that.
I’m all in favor of giving Palestinians reparations but after that it needs to be in exchange for releasing all claims to the land. And they need to be resettled with equity and dignity in friendly Arab nations with a compatible culture.
I’m not sure if you can seriously believe your justification for pushing out the Palestinians. Especially since you’re constructing a narrative based on Jews “deserving” this because of holocaust - which justifies it based on ancient history again and makes it explicitly a European colonial project. Which it was. Anyway - displacing them is not an option, the “friendly arab neighbors” are a different ethnicity and don’t want them. That again is racial bias to think “they are all the same”.
So yeah the only viable solution would be a one state, and that AFTER Israel has been “denazified”. Because that’s what they are more or less now. Fascists who believe that there can never be peace between those “sub humans”. They kept millions of people in occupied areas, and actively suppressed any peaceful movements in the illusion that this is somehow sustainable. FYI a modern definition of fascism is a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Israel now is basically the US after 20 years of Trump rule. We (US and EU) need to stop supporting them.
I’ve grown up with this propaganda in my head too that the arabs are just violence terrorist and bomb etc. And that the Jews need to be protected. But to say “never again” most of all means to prevent genocide. Israel’s regime now calls everyone who criticizes them antisemitic and actively seeks to create anti-semitism for their own political gain.
And I would have loved to stand back and not get involved in this, but my government made my country complicit by aiding Israel perpetrate this genocide. I just hope it’s not too late.
I will admit that I know nothing about Israel’s current politics other than that Netanyahu is corrupt and if not for this war he’d likely have been impeached and ousted. I appreciate this post and all this information.
The British first started settling Jews in Israel when it was British Palestine.
It was British territory. You have to respect conquest and annexation. If you don’t then I could make a case through roundabout historical arguments that Israel belongs to the Jews anyway because they were there thousands of years ago in 700 BC and Arabs were not! That would make us occupiers of native American land. Where does the madness end? An endless attempt to make things right in history by going back to the first peoples of the land? In that case all of England would need to be repopulated back in Northern Germany. Half of Northern Italy would need to be repatriated in Belarus.
We would somehow need to move all of South America into Spain.
Australia would become deserted and returned only to the aboriginals.
It’s unreasonable to not respect conquest and annexation. Is it moral, no? We don’t have the PHYSICAL capacity for perfect justice when it comes to a question of this large magnitude. I subscribe to realpolitik.
So if we’re trying to maximize justice for those still alive and not judging up ancestral grievances of who conquered who… We need to focus on practical considerations only for the people currently alive not who was living there 100 years ago.
Furthermore I would say that displacing some Palestinians to give refuge to a people that were recently genocided on mass in World War II is a moral goal. Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it a reasonable and mostly good one? Yes.
How should it have been handled? They should have bought the land from Palestinians. In many cases they did. But that didn’t stop false claims of colonialism.
I’m all in favor of giving Palestinians reparations but after that it needs to be in exchange for releasing all claims to the land. And they need to be resettled with equity and dignity in friendly Arab nations with a compatible culture.
You want to talk justice, it doesn’t become easy, it gets very messy very fast and I’m fine with the taking on that approach. But I have the stomach for it and I’m not sure the vast majority of people do.
There’s yet another solution that could be equitable for all. That of a UN protectorate. As far as I’m aware that’s the only perfect solution. But it’s the least practical and the most unlikely because it makes literally no one happy despite being what’s truly just.
A UN protectorate would make sense anyway because technically the whole world has cultural claim to Jerusalem and the surroundings.
And it could lay the foundation for a sensible and accountable democratic world government.
But conspiracy nuts won’t ever allow that. And there’s other less fantastical reasons for opposition as well that are more grounded in self-interest and selfishness and monetary reasons.
Yeah that was my point, it’s unproductive to dredge up the history, you have to find reasonable solutions to allow people a dignified life now. And the majority of Palestinians are actually on board with that.
But the current regime in Israel and the geopolitical strategies in the middle east are just… abominable. Long before Okt.7 Israel used genocidal tactics by creating a fascist legal system and try to push out and disenfranchise Palestinians more and more (e.g. Israel Escalates Genocidal Violence Against Palestinians In The West Bank - YouTube Jul.8th 2023)
If you want to know the lies and propaganda that is being used to fool the world around all this, read this: Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians - theintercept Feb.7th 2024. Or at least the beginning, it’s long but in depth.
I’m not sure if you can seriously believe your justification for pushing out the Palestinians. Especially since you’re constructing a narrative based on Jews “deserving” this because of holocaust - which justifies it based on ancient history again and makes it explicitly a European colonial project. Which it was. Anyway - displacing them is not an option, the “friendly arab neighbors” are a different ethnicity and don’t want them. That again is racial bias to think “they are all the same”.
So yeah the only viable solution would be a one state, and that AFTER Israel has been “denazified”. Because that’s what they are more or less now. Fascists who believe that there can never be peace between those “sub humans”. They kept millions of people in occupied areas, and actively suppressed any peaceful movements in the illusion that this is somehow sustainable. FYI a modern definition of fascism is a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Israel now is basically the US after 20 years of Trump rule. We (US and EU) need to stop supporting them.
I’ve grown up with this propaganda in my head too that the arabs are just violence terrorist and bomb etc. And that the Jews need to be protected. But to say “never again” most of all means to prevent genocide. Israel’s regime now calls everyone who criticizes them antisemitic and actively seeks to create anti-semitism for their own political gain.
And I would have loved to stand back and not get involved in this, but my government made my country complicit by aiding Israel perpetrate this genocide. I just hope it’s not too late.
Some links:
An interview with the Author of the above intercept article: Jeremy Scahill on Israel's "Deliberate Propaganda Campaign" - YouTube
Report Finds “No Evidence” in Key Dossier to Support Israel’s UNRWA Allegations | Truthout
Israel’s free speech crackdown: ‘War inside of a war’ - The Washington Post Nov 12th, 2023
Israeli Kids Torment Principal Who Voices Empathy For Gazans - YouTube Jan 7, 2024
You’ve lost me entirely.